States Meeting - 12 November 2024 - Morning - Tuesday 12 November 2024, 9:30am - States of Jersey Webcasting

States Meeting - 12 November 2024 - Morning
Tuesday, 12th November 2024 at 9:30am 

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  1. Presiding Officer
  2. Deputy David Warr
  3. Presiding Officer
  4. Deputy Karen Wilson
  5. Presiding Officer
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  1. Deputy Inna Gardiner
  2. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  3. Deputy Inna Gardiner
  4. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  5. Connétable of St. Saviour
  6. Connétable of St. Lawrence
  7. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  8. Connétable of St. Lawrence
  9. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  10. Presiding Officer
  11. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  12. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  13. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  14. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  15. Connétable of St. Saviour
  16. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  17. Connétable of St. Saviour
  18. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  19. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  20. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  21. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  22. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  23. Deputy Sir Philip Bailhache
  24. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  25. Deputy Sir Philip Bailhache
  26. Deputy Inna Gardiner
  27. Deputy Kirsten Morel
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  1. Deputy Tom Coles
  2. Connétable of St. John
  3. Deputy Tom Coles
  4. Connétable of St. John
  5. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  6. Connétable of St. John
  7. Deputy Alex Curtis
  8. Connétable of St. John
  9. Deputy Alex Curtis
  10. Connétable of St. John
  11. Presiding Officer
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  1. Deputy Helen Miles
  2. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  3. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
  4. Deputy Helen Miles
  5. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
  6. Connétable of St. Lawrence
  7. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
  8. Connétable of St. Brelade
  9. Connétable of St. Lawrence
  10. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
  11. Deputy Catherine Curtis
  12. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
  13. Deputy Catherine Curtis
  14. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
  15. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  16. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
  17. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  18. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
  19. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  20. Deputy Helen Miles
  21. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
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  1. Deputy Hilary Jeune
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  1. HM Attorney General
  2. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  3. HM Attorney General
  4. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  5. HM Attorney General
  6. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  7. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  8. HM Attorney General
  9. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  10. HM Attorney General
  11. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  12. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  13. HM Attorney General
  14. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  15. HM Attorney General
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  1. Deputy Max Andrews
  2. Deputy Lyndsay Feltham
  3. Deputy Sam Mézec
  4. Deputy Max Andrews
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  1. Deputy Louise Doublet
  2. Connétable of St. Peter
  3. Deputy Louise Doublet
  4. Connétable of St. Peter
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  1. Deputy Beatriz Porée
  2. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
  3. Deputy Beatriz Porée
  4. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
  5. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  6. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
  7. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  8. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
  9. Presiding Officer
  10. Deputy Louise Doublet
  11. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
  12. Deputy Louise Doublet
  13. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
  14. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  15. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
  16. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  17. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
  18. Deputy Beatriz Porée
  19. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
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  1. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  2. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  3. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  4. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  5. Deputy Inna Gardiner
  6. Presiding Officer
  7. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  8. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  9. Presiding Officer
  10. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  11. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  12. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  13. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  14. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  15. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  16. Deputy Steve Ahier
  17. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  18. Deputy Steve Ahier
  19. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  20. Deputy Beatriz Porée
  21. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  22. Deputy Beatriz Porée
  23. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  24. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
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  1. Deputy Steve Ahier
  2. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  3. Deputy Steve Ahier
  4. Deputy Kirsten Morel
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  1. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  2. Deputy Tom Binet
  3. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  4. Deputy Tom Binet
  5. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  6. Deputy Tom Binet
  7. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  8. Deputy Tom Binet
  9. Deputy Tom Coles
  10. Deputy Tom Binet
  11. Deputy Tom Coles
  12. Deputy Tom Binet
  13. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  14. Deputy Tom Binet
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  1. Deputy David Warr
  2. Connétable of St. John
  3. Deputy David Warr
  4. Connétable of St. John
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  1. Deputy Karen Wilson
  2. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
  3. Deputy Karen Wilson
  4. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
  5. Connétable of St. Martin
  6. Connétable of St. Saviour
  7. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
  8. Deputy Tom Coles
  9. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
  10. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  11. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
  12. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  13. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
  14. Deputy Karen Wilson
  15. Deputy Malcolm Ferey
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  1. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  2. Deputy Steve Luce
  3. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  4. Deputy Steve Luce
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  1. Deputy Max Andrews
  2. Deputy Elaine Millar
  3. Deputy Max Andrews
  4. Deputy Elaine Millar
  5. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  6. Deputy Elaine Millar
  7. Deputy Philip Ozouf
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  1. Deputy Louise Doublet
  2. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
  3. Deputy Louise Doublet
  4. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
  5. Deputy Inna Gardiner
  6. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
  7. Deputy Helen Miles
  8. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
  9. Deputy Helen Miles
  10. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
  11. Deputy Louise Doublet
  12. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
  13. Deputy Tom Coles
  14. Deputy Kirsten Morel
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  1. Deputy Tom Coles
  2. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  3. Deputy Inna Gardiner
  4. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  5. Deputy Inna Gardiner
  6. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  7. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  8. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  9. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  10. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  11. Deputy Tom Coles
  12. Deputy Kirsten Morel
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  1. Deputy Beatriz Porée
  2. Deputy Mary Le Hegarat
  3. Deputy Beatriz Porée
  4. Deputy Alex Curtis
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  1. Deputy Inna Gardiner
  2. Deputy Tom Binet
  3. Deputy Inna Gardiner
  4. Deputy Tom Binet
  5. Deputy Inna Gardiner
  6. Deputy Tom Binet
  7. Deputy Tom Coles
  8. Deputy Tom Binet
  9. Deputy Tom Coles
  10. Deputy Tom Binet
  11. Deputy Tom Coles
  12. Deputy Tom Binet
  13. Deputy Alex Curtis
  14. Deputy Tom Binet
  15. Deputy Alex Curtis
  16. Deputy Tom Binet
  17. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  18. Deputy Tom Binet
  19. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  20. Deputy Tom Binet
  21. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  22. Deputy Tom Binet
  23. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  24. Deputy Tom Binet
  25. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  26. Deputy Tom Binet
  27. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  28. Deputy Tom Binet
  29. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  30. Deputy Tom Binet
  31. Deputy Louise Doublet
  32. Deputy Tom Binet
  33. Deputy Louise Doublet
  34. Deputy Tom Binet
  35. Deputy Catherine Curtis
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  1. Deputy Carolyn Labey
  2. Deputy Catherine Curtis
  3. Deputy Carolyn Labey
  4. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  5. Deputy Carolyn Labey
  6. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  7. Deputy Carolyn Labey
  8. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  9. Deputy Carolyn Labey
  10. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  11. Deputy Carolyn Labey
  12. Deputy Beatriz Porée
  13. Deputy Carolyn Labey
  14. Deputy Beatriz Porée
  15. Deputy Carolyn Labey
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  1. Deputy Karen Wilson
  2. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  3. Deputy Karen Wilson
  4. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  5. Deputy Helen Miles
  6. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  7. Deputy Helen Miles
  8. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  9. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  10. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  11. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  12. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  13. Deputy Louise Doublet
  14. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  15. Deputy Louise Doublet
  16. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  17. Deputy Inna Gardiner
  18. Deputy Raluca Kovacs
  19. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  20. Deputy Raluca Kovacs
  21. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  22. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  23. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  24. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  25. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  26. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  27. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  28. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  29. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  30. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  31. Deputy Inna Gardiner
  32. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  33. Deputy Inna Gardiner
  34. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  35. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  36. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  37. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  38. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  39. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  40. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
  41. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  42. Deputy Lyndon Farnham
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  1. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  2. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  3. Deputy Jonathan Renouf
  4. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  5. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  6. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  7. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  8. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  9. Deputy Philip Ozouf
  10. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  11. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  12. Deputy Kirsten Morel
  13. Deputy Rob Ward
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Share this agenda point
  1. Deputy Louise Doublet
  2. Deputy Rob Ward
  3. Deputy Louise Doublet
  4. Deputy Rob Ward
  5. Deputy Catherine Curtis
  6. Deputy Rob Ward
  7. Deputy Catherine Curtis
  8. Deputy Rob Ward
  9. Deputy Catherine Curtis
  10. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  11. Deputy Rob Ward
  12. Deputy Hilary Jeune
  13. Deputy Rob Ward
  14. Deputy Karen Wilson
  15. Deputy Rob Ward
  16. Deputy Karen Wilson
  17. Deputy Rob Ward
  18. Deputy Inna Gardiner
  19. Deputy Rob Ward
  20. Deputy Inna Gardiner
  21. Deputy Rob Ward
  22. Webcast Finished

Roll Call

L'apele s'il vous plaît Madame Le Greffier.
Monsieur le Connétable de Saint Helier.
Madame le Connétable de Saint Laurent.
Present.
Monsieur le Connétable de Saint Brelade
Monsieur Le Connétable de la Trinité.
Present.
Monsieur Le Connétable de Saint Pierre.
Present.
Madam Le Connétable de Saint Martin.
Present.
Monsieur Le Connétable de Saint Jean.
Present.
Monsieur Le Connétable de Saint Clément.
Present.
Monsieur Le Connétable de Grouville.
Present.
Monsieur Le Connétable de Saint Ouen
Monsieur Le Connétable de Saint Marie.
Present.
Present
Monsieur Le Connétable de Saint Sauveur
Present
Monsieur Le Deputy Southern.
Present.
Madame Le Depte Labbe.
President.
Mr. Le Depte Tadier.
Mr. Le Depte Luce.
President.
Madame Le Depte Duble.
President.
Mr. Le Depte Morale.
President.
Madame Le Depte Le Hegarale.
Present.
Mr. Le Depte Iyer.
Mr. Deputy Ward.
Present.
Madam Deputy Alves.
Madam Deputy Gardner.
Present.
Mr. Deputy Gost.
Present.
Mr. Deputy Fana.
Present.
Madam Deputy Moore.
Mr. Deputy Messe.
Present.
Mr. Deputy Ozef.
Present.
Mr. Deputy Balash.
Mr. Le Deputy Colle.
Mr. Le Deputy Poire.
Mr. Le Deputy War.
Mr. Le Deputy Miles.
Mr. Le Deputy Scott.
Mr. Le Deputy Renoff.
Mr. Le Deputy Curtis.
Mr. Le Deputy Falfum.
Mr. Le Deputy Binet.
Madam Deputy Miller.
Madam Deputy Howell.
Madam Deputy Binet.
Madam Deputy Ferry.
Madam Deputy Kovacs.
President.
Mr. Deputy Curtis.
Madam Deputy Ward.
President.
Madam Deputy Wilson.
Madam Deputy Stevenson.
Mr. Deputy Andrews.
Mr. Levan.
Our dear friends, we are here to make the last of this year. Amen.
et sont jobs suiv Safeuterie
Mr. Le Connotab de Saint -Brélade.
Sir, the Connotab de Saint -Brélade is out of the island
on state's business at APF conference.
An APF conference.
Very well, state's business.
Mr. Le Connotab de Saint -Juan.
Malade.
Poujure que Mr. Le Connotab de Saint -Juan et terre
un disposé qui le peu varecis.
C 'est aussetat sans exposé sa sente.
Monsieur le deputy tadier.
Deputy Taddear as well at the APF conference in State's Business.
State's Business.
Monsieur le Deputy Ayer.
Present.
Madame le Deputy Aus.
Present.
Madame le Deputy Moore.
Deputy Moore, madame, is on State's Business at the same French parliamentary conference.
State's Business.
Madame le Deputy Porraig.
Deputy Clerk.
Please hold.
Madam Deputy Felson.
Madam Attorney.
Mr. Hayke, Madam Deputy Felson.
I am intersposed in Kevin for the assistance of time.
So I'll expose this to the Attorney.
Madam Deputy Stevenson.
Excuse me.
Oh, excused.
I pick up five more problems, so yes.

Communications by the Presiding Officer

I want to start on communications from the presiding officer.
Presiding Officer - 0:06:24
I am sure many members already know, but I am delighted to report
that Deputy Kovacs became the new parliamentarian of the year last week.
in the conference in Sydney.
I was going to say, would members like to congratulate her?
But clearly, that gun has been jumped.
Members who have been saddened, I'm sure to hear of the death last week
of former deputy Jerry Dorey.
Jeremy Lawrence Dorey, known as Jerry, was first elected as a deputy
of St. Helier No. 1 District on the 9th of December 1993
and was reelected to that role in 1996.
He stood for and was elected as a senator in February of 1999
until he resigned on the 6th of July of that year
and that he was then reelected as a deputy
for St. Helier No. 1 on the 9th of December 1999
and for a further three -year term on the 12th of December 2002
until he lost his seat in the 2005 general election.
Although he was born in Ealing in London in 1956,
he was educated at Victoria College in Jersey before attending Exeter College,
Oxford, where he obtained an MA in French.
Prior to entering the states, he worked as a freelance computer programmer in Jersey.
During his time in the Assembly, he served on a variety of committees,
including education, health, broadcasting, housing, employment, and social security,
and was elected president of agriculture and fisheries, public services,
and human resources at various stages in his tenure.
He also sat on two committees of inquiry, one for the marina,
and one on limited liability partnerships.
He was a scrutiny of legislation, and it was as such that he shone
because he was meticulous and thorough
in reviewing draft laws lodged for debate.
He was an intelligent individual who could speak a number
of languages fluently and had a keen eye for accuracy,
often to the annoyance of his colleagues.
It was felt that his failure to be reelected
at a close run election when he lost by fewer than 30 votes
in 2005 was a great loss to the island for the quality
of his legislative scrutiny.
He left Jersey to live in France with his beloved cats,
and it was there that he passed away on the 2nd of November
after a short illness just a month shy of his 73rd birthday.
I understand that his funeral is being held today in France,
and our thoughts are with his son, Will, and his grandchildren
and extended family at this sad time.
I would ask members to stand
and observe the customary minute of silence.
Thank you.
.
There are a number of subordinate enactments tabled under B. A number
of matters have been presented or laid as described
in the consolidated order paper under Section C.
And the following matters have been lodged under Section D.
Proposed Budget Government Plan 2025 -28 P -51 Second Amendment,
lodged by Deputy Miles, the same Third Amendment,
lodged by Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel,
the same Fourth Amendment,
lodged by Corporate Services Scrutiny Panel,
the same Fifth Amendment, lodged by the Children, Education,
and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel,
the same Sixth Amendment, lodged by a Hospital Review Panel,
The same Seventh Amendment lodged by Deputy Duble,
the same the Eighth Amendment lodged by Deputy Miles,
the same the Ninth Amendment lodged by Deputy Zern,
the same the Tenth Amendment lodged by the Health
and Social Security Scrutiny Panel,
the same the Eleventh Amendment lodged by the Environment,
Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel,
same the Twelfth Amendment lodged by Deputy Zern,
the 13th Amendment lodged by Deputy Renoff,
the 14th Amendment lodged by Deputy Gardner,
the 15th Amendment lodged by the Children, Education,
and Home Affairs Scrutiny Panel,
the 16th Amendment lodged by Deputy Ossoff,
the 17th Amendment lodged by Deputy Wilson, and the draft,
the Royal Court and Stamp Duties
and Freeze Jersey Amendment lodged by Deputy Balash,
The Pets in Rental Properties Amendment lodged by Deputy War.
The Draft Finance 2025 Budget Jersey Law Amendment lodged
by the Environment, Housing and Infrastructure Scrutiny Panel.
Amendment to Standing Orders miscellaneous amendments lodged
by the Privileges and Procedures Committee.
Draft Single -Use Plastics, et cetera,
Restrictions Jersey Amendment lodged by the Minister
for Infrastructure.
Draft Employment and Discrimination Jersey Amendment
law P -78 lodged by the Minister for Social Security,
and the draft determination of pregnancy Jersey amendment law lodged
by the Minister for Health and Social Services.
There are no matters under E, F, and G or H. Under questions,
the answers to written questions have been tabled in the usual way.
And we come now to oral questions.
Sir.
Yes, sir.
Just in connection with written questions, I received an email last night at about 10
Deputy David Warr - 0:13:27
to 6 with a late response to one of my written questions.
However, I had written to the infrastructure minister in connection with his answer to
written question 355, which I...
355.
355.
Yeah.
which I felt was not particularly accurate.
I've written directly to the infrastructure minister
who, on the 1st of November, who advised me
that not being able to answer that question
till Wednesday of this week.
And I just wanted to know if that's an acceptable time today.
Well, as you all know,
Presiding Officer - 0:14:01
deputy standing orders require that the question
is answered in enough time for the meeting
so that members can read what the answer is.
But if I were asked to rule on it, I would in any event give
until tomorrow for a revised answer to be prepared.
So in effect, I think the result is the same
that the minister will table his answer tomorrow.
Thank you, sir.
Sir, point of order, please.
Yes.
Deputy Karen Wilson - 0:14:31
Thank you.
I received a response to a question from the minister
for Sustainable Economic Development in response
to question 403.
403, yes.
Yes, and I wondered if you could consider it on the basis
as to whether or not it actually contravenes section 2A
of standing order 12, please,
as I don't believe the question has been answered.
Thank you.
Presiding Officer - 0:14:55
Right. Well, then I will look at that over the luncheon adjournment
and advise members of my view on it after lunch, the usual way.
If you, Deputy, have a particular reason
for thinking it hasn't been answered,
then if you could reduce that to an email, it would be helpful
for me to assist my consideration.
Otherwise, I simply look at it on its terms.
Very well.
Very well.
We come now to oral questions.
And the first question, Deputy Gardner, will ask the Minister
for Sustainable and Economic Development.
Deputy.
Thanks, sir.

Oral Question 1 - Anticipated financial implications of a ferry service (OQ.209/2024)

Will the minister advise what his current plans are
Deputy Inna Gardiner - 0:15:35
for the provision of the ferry service for Jersey
for the next 12 months and for the longer term?
And will he detail any anticipated financial implications?
Minister.
Thank you, sir.
And I thank the deputy for her question.
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 0:15:54
Sir, first of all, if you will allow me, I just would
like to apologize to members for choosing not
to make a statement this morning.
I wrote to members yesterday what I understood
and what I realized was we're moving from one process
into another process.
And the statement on those matters
in the middle of that process would
be difficult and potentially prejudicial in one way, shape,
or form to the outcome of that process, which is why
I chose not to make a statement.
It is my intention to fully inform the states
at an appropriate time.
And so I do hope and intend to make a statement in the future.
And I thank ministers, I thank members for their perseverance.
With regard to the question more directly, as the members will know, we have moved from,
we have ended our participation in the joint channel island tender process
and we're now moving to a new tender process for Jersey -only services.
So that process is ongoing.
But in the meantime, it has to be said
that Condor have confirmed
that they will not be accepting the invitation
to extend the current operating agreement beyond March
next year.
This means Condor will continue to sail
under the current operating agreements until the end
of March 2025, at which point a new operating agreement will be
in place.
So as far as financial implications are concerned,
the direct financial implications,
I do not know of any.
But I predict that obviously the processes themselves have
financial implications, but I do not have a figure
that I can fit on that, but running a process.
And particularly in this case, we
want to make sure that independent mediators,
moderators, et cetera, that will cost some money, not
enormous amounts, but there will be some cost in that,
for example.
So if you have a question.
Absolutely.
Thank you for the minister for his response.
Deputy Inna Gardiner - 0:17:51
I think this is the news, and at least we have clarity
that we don't have seven months extension.
with the Condor Ferry and we have no ferry beyond March 25.
What are the plans that the Minister has in place,
including timelines, when Ireland and businesses would
have certainty from April onwards?
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 0:18:16
So it is absolutely my intention to work
through the new approach to the Jersey -only service.
we are intending that we would be able to announce
a preferred bidder for that within the next month
and would expect the chosen operator
to begin sailing immediately thereafter
to allow islanders and visitors to begin booking
for the summer season in 2025 and beyond.
So we do expect to be able to get both tickets on sale
and certainly the ability for tour operators
to sell tickets within the next month.
I'm going to have some Lawrence.
Connétable of St. Saviour - 0:18:57
Just trying to get my head around the situation, sir,
Connétable of St. Lawrence - 0:19:02
as I'm sure members are, maybe members of the public as well.
So if I may just ask the minister to clarify for me.
Did he just advise the Assembly
that Condor's contract will finish in March,
at which time a new contract will be awarded but at the moment we don't know
who that contract will be awarded to is that the current situation so I'm
looking to the minister he's so he's agreeing and he said the new contract
will be different will he advise us how the new contract will differ to the
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 0:19:42
current one there are a number of areas in which the new contract will differ
from the current one.
Firstly, and I have to say this is the new contract
will have some teeth.
The current contract does not really have any ability
to keep the operator in line with their commitments
in terms of penalizing in order to ensure
that they remain operating within the operating agreement.
That is not from my perspective me saying
that there have been particular times
where that hasn't been held to.
I think there may have been,
but I do not have them at all.
So the ability for the contract
to actually hold the contractee to account
will be part of this contract.
The contract also asks for things such as
a flat rate card for freight services
to ensure that we can have proper competition
in freight services.
The contract also ensures that there is investment
in a new decarbonized fleet.
That's really very, very important.
These are things which are currently
not in the existing contract
and there are certain elements of a new contract
which are remarkably different to the existing one.
Sotamental question?
Connétable of St. Lawrence - 0:20:53
Yes, the Minister has made, has given us details
of how the contract will differ.
Are those the only ways in which it will be different?
How much information is the Minister able to make public
on this new contract?
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 0:21:11
They are not going to be the only ways, but there are so many ways
that this contract is different that it would be virtually impossible feet
of memory to be able to list them in their entirety.
The new contract is designed to be an actual contract
in which we can hold the operator to account and hold them to the terms
of that contract over the coming years.
I mentioned fleet investments.
the new contract will require fleet investment
and because at the moment we are served by an aging fleet,
that's the reality.
And this new contract, by having fleet investment in there,
that is one of the reasons why I am so focused
on the financial ability of the chosen operator
to deliver that investment in the future.
Because for our islands to be able to sail
with brand new vessels means that we need an operator
that is able to finance those brand new vessels.
And that is one of the key concerns that I have had throughout this process, that we
have a financially resilient operator that is able not just to last 15 years of a contract,
but during those 15 years of a contract is able to deliver to these islands brand new
vessels that they deserve and that we need in order to be number one compliant with carbon
reduction.
But also to have the vessels that islanders are effectively paying for through their ticket
And for me, that element of financial resilience has been
at the heart of this difficult time that I really want us
to be working with.
When we contract for 15 years, I want us to be working
with a party that unequivocally, unequivocally can deliver
that 15 -year contract with new investment.
Presiding Officer - 0:23:01
I have Deputy Renoff, Conantap, St. Xavier, Deputy Osif,
and Deputy Balash listed to ask questions.
I've had to already indicate that's the maximum that I
can take at this point to keep on track.
So Deputy Renoff.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 0:23:14
Yes, so last week the chief minister was sent a furious,
I think it was the chief minister,
was sent a furious letter from the Hospitality Association
commenting on the process so far.
That letter was particularly focused on the issue of not
being able to make bookings beyond March.
Has he had any contact with the hospitality association
with the news that it's looking likely there
will at least be another month before there's
any clarity on timetables?
And no, sir, I have not.
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 0:23:45
This was information that we received yesterday,
and I have not had the opportunity
yet to notify anyone states members are the first
to be notified.
Supplemental question, maybe?
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 0:23:54
Yes, sir.
Can the minister confirm whether he
is speaking to both companies in conjunction
with this potential contract extension at the moment.
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 0:24:08
So it is correct that we continue
to be in discussions with both companies.
Well, it's on to Hobbs and Savio.
Thank you, sir.
Connétable of St. Saviour - 0:24:22
A few weeks ago, sir, I did ask the minister
regarding the viability of sharing a mail plane with Guernsey.
It's much more viable, improved service, and it's always better to work together.
Does the minister think it's viable shipping -wise to have an operator that comes to Jersey only,
which would not only be detrimental to Jersey, but also to Guernsey?
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 0:24:50
Sir, I think it's really important that members understand
that a service which is Jersey only would still have inter
island routes.
It would not have no inter island connectivity.
And actually, so really, it is only the links to the UK
and the links to France that are governed by the contract.
It is quite simple, sir,
that actually a Jersey only service would see many,
in many cases journeys from the UK being faster
than they currently are because they would not,
they would be able to operate directly to the islands
thereby saving time in both freight and passenger journeys.
There is no question we have asked
and the Jersey only service is absolutely viable
but I have to come back to my point
that I find it very hard to look,
I have to look at financial resilience, sir,
and I have to look at the ability for a company
to be able to deliver for this island the services
and the new vessels that this island requires.
That is absolutely viable under a Jersey -only surface.
There is no question, sir.
I just think it is such a shame that I
have been placed in the position whereby
I have not been given the opportunity to really get
to the bottom of that financial viability with regard to one
of the parties because other parties decided
to announce decisions before we were in the position to do so.
Supplemental question, Colin, Charles and Xavier.
Thank you, sir.
Connétable of St. Saviour - 0:26:25
I would concede the point, sir,
that the minister may have been wrong -footed
in this recent decision,
but we have had several operators running the routes
in the past in tandem, which does not always end well.
Does the minister think there's still room
for agreement with Guernsey?
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 0:26:49
Sir, I've always thought there was room
to negotiate and to work together.
Unfortunately, that opportunity has been largely denied me, sir.
Mr. Fieze.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 0:27:01
Sir, the, I do not underestimate, there's a number
of all questions, sir, I know in this regard.
So maybe you'll be able to deal with timing.
I've got a question on the same issue.
So I'll ask my question now.
Well, there is you and there is Deputy Balasch,
and then I'm moving to the next question.
OK.
And there were other questions on the order paper
with a similar thing.
So you'll constrain that time as you wish, sir.
So I do not underestimate the issues that the minister has.
The sale of the original Condor was before a competition law
which prohibited anti -competitive behavior
or any actions concerning allegations of cartels
or monopolies was made.
There's been debt leverage and other issues.
Is the minister getting advice about what
is the legal and right way to protect the islanders in terms
of the cost of living?
And I'm particularly wanting to ask about freight rates.
Freight rates have remained very high in Jersey for years.
It has a knock -on effect on the cost of living.
Is he putting this at the front and center
of his considerations in how to deal with what
is an inherited large issue?
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 0:28:03
So freight rates have been front and center
of this invitation to tender.
There's no question.
That is one of the reasons why we asked for a flat rate card
so that there was entire transparency in that process
and that all islanders would know
and understand the cost of freight.
A flat rate card, sir, would enable competition
in the freight market, which is currently denied.
That competition then enables those freight forwarders
and logistics companies to deliver higher value added
services and to deliver services in a more competitive way.
At the moment, sir, that opportunity is denied the island.
So we are denied the potential for competition to reduce,
to play a part in reducing the cost of living, sir.
A flat rate card would entirely enable us to do that.
So the mental question, David?
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 0:28:54
So I understand the minister feels somewhat constrained
going to comment in public on the issues.
But he does have parliamentary privilege.
And he can speak in forthright terms if he wishes to do so.
And may I ask, in the light of the report that
was provided to this assembly by Professor Sir John Vickers
about regulation, he did say that it was hard,
that pragmatism was needed, but the focus on competition
and regulation had to be beneficial.
Is he able to confirm to the assembly and all the members
of the public that are somehow doubting whether or not
this process is going to end well,
that he has in his armory and on advice,
the professional advice from expert economists
and regulators that will help them make the right decision
for Jersey in the longer term?
Because it seems to me that there's this forced situation
with a cartel between certain parties,
potentially between Gurns and the operator, which
is deleteriously affecting Jersey, potentially?
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 0:29:58
I thank the deputy for his question.
I absolutely do have advice from a wide team.
It is difficult before the contract comes into play,
whoever has the contract, it is difficult to know exactly
how the market will operate.
But I do speak with advisors about those matters.
And I do think it's very, very important that Jersey has a ferry service that it can rely on.
I am really concerned about the idea that we sign up to a ferry service that in just two
or three years' time may require us or may ask for further funding to bail out,
as has been given to me in the past 12 months, a direct request
for funding to bail the company out.
That is what I am trying to avoid because to me that is a significant impact
Not just on the cost of living but on the cost to taxpayers
I also worry about the amount of money in ticket prices that is going off to pay interest rates
Yeah off to pay interest instead of being reinvested in the company. These are the matter if so reinvested in a fleet
These are the matters that really really concern me, but the flat rate card will help us get
every balance
Deputy Sir Philip Bailhache - 0:31:18
So did the minister not appreciate right
at the beginning of this melancholy process
that Jersey and Guernsey might wish
to arrive at different conclusions on the matter?
And were there any contingency plans for such an eventuality?
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 0:31:39
So the actual tender process itself
allowed for the islands to come to different views
on the matter and allowed the islands to abandon the process,
which is what we have done so in this case.
It is not possible for me in this forum to go into detail
as to why we have chosen to abandon
rather than just make a separate appointment,
but that will become clear in time, sir.
There is nothing that I have or fear to hide
from any action that I have done or taken.
I have quite simply tried to avoid Jersey
being forced into a position that may not be to Jersey's advantage in terms of
trying to get a financially resilient ferry operator for the next 15 years
that is able to invest in a new fleet. That is something I want to make sure
Jersey can benefit from and I want to make sure that I and the government of
Jersey and states members are not forced into a position where we are not able to
make that choice.
Deputy Sir Philip Bailhache - 0:32:41
Subliminal question, Deputy. Final supplementary, Deputy Gartner.
So I assume, and I ask minister to correct me
Deputy Inna Gardiner - 0:32:45
if my assumption is not correct, that based
on what's been said in the public,
there are big concern about financial ability of Britain
e -condor.
The minister or the council of ministers would prefer DFDS.
What stop the minister simply giving the full contract
and negotiate contract with DFDS as Guernsey doing
and negotiating contract direct with Britain and CODRO.
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 0:33:15
Why we needed to go into the new template?
So it is really important to treat all parties equally.
And that is at the bottom line of procurement process.
You have to be fair to all the parties engaged.
That is at the heart of why I've not just
been able to say one company rather than the other.
And it is important that as we move into this new process,
we do treat both parties equally.
And that is something that I am trying to ensure that we do.
That's everything.
We've already come to question two.
The Deputy Coles will ask the Minister for Infrastructure.
Deputy.

Oral Question 2 - Island’s electricity network (OQ.207/2024)

Thank you, sir.
Deputy Tom Coles - 0:33:55
Further to Jersey Electricity's announcement
to upgrade the island's electricity network,
will the Minister advise what conversations, if any,
he has had or plans to have with JE regarding the costs
of the required road work and resurfacing of the roads?
Thank you, sir.
I thank the deputy for his question.
Connétable of St. John - 0:34:16
Sir, infrastructure maintains a continuous dialogue with all our utility companies about
planned works on our road network in order that we can continue assess the impact on
traffic and road infrastructure.
We also publish our own planned highway maintenance for the next six years on the government website
up to and including 2030.
In relation to the JAC's announcement, big upgrade program, an initial briefing took
place in April and meetings have since taken place to ensure the newly
resurfaced roads part of our highway maintenance programs are not dug up as
a result. In terms of the cost sir that will be down to the utility company sir
not to the government thank you. Supplemental question Deputy. Thank you sir
Deputy Tom Coles - 0:34:56
and as there's improvements and upgrades required to us a sewage network and
some of these areas might coincide has that also begin any consideration? So
Connétable of St. John - 0:35:08
What we do is there's a monthly call between all utilities,
including our drainage team, and we also look annually, sir,
about what's planned coming forward.
So we will continue to discuss not only
with the electric company, but also water company
and telecoms companies to see where we can share resources.
Thank you.
Deb Yossif.
Thank you, sir.
And in the context of the previous question and this one,
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 0:35:31
we are asking the minister to deal with the consequences
is of a company that is investing
in our infrastructure for the long -term liability.
And there's been a lot of debate in the United Kingdom
and elsewhere about NIMBYism and short -termism
versus long -termism.
Would the minister agree that this is a really good initiative
by the JAC to improve our island -wide network
for the clean power that we are getting from France?
And would he actually balance the issues of roadworks
short -term with the long -term issues,
and is he doing so?
Thank you, sir.
Yes, sir.
Connétable of St. John - 0:36:09
Welcome the investment of the, into the infrastructure
by the electric company, sir.
And of course, it's not only the government's roads,
but also parish buy roads.
And in fact, I believe parish buy roads will be impacted
as much, if not more, than the government roads.
Thank you.
Supplemental question, Deputy?
No, sir.
Very well.
Deputy Alex Curtis.
Thank you, sir.
Is the minister considering any change
Deputy Alex Curtis - 0:36:31
to the road counterweight resurfacing policies
to ensure that sufficient full width reinstatement of roads occurs
when a significant amount of trenching is done, as we've seen a lot of works
where actually the resurfacing of trenching is going to cause long -term issues
to the quality of certain carriageways.
Thank you, sir.
Connétable of St. John - 0:36:54
We already have the ability for the full width to be reinstated, sir.
We also have the ability to do test holes to make sure
that the road is being reinstated properly.
and there's also a three -year period where that road is guaranteed.
And any repairs done to the, in the three years is also,
carries a three -year guarantee.
Thank you.
So I'll do a request from Deputy Coats.
Thank you, sir.
Just to confirm, will the minister feel comfortable
Deputy Alex Curtis - 0:37:17
that his department will use where appropriate that power they have
to request full -width reinstatement where it is felt it is justified
and appropriate for an operator to do so?
We will, sir.
Connétable of St. John - 0:37:30
Final supplementary.
Deputy Coats.
Thank you, sir.
Presiding Officer - 0:37:36
I just remind members that it's never the policy during
questions with notice to offer a second supplemental question
to any member.
We come to question three.

Oral Question 3 - Association of Educational Psychologists (OQ.217/2024)

The Deputy Miles will ask of the chair of the SEB.
Deputy.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Helen Miles - 0:37:52
Will the minister provide an update on the dispute
between the Association of Educational Psychologists
and the government?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 0:38:04
Thank you, sir. I thank the Deputy for the question. We are working with the National
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 0:38:10
Officer of the Association of Educational Psychologists and the Educational Psychologist
to resolve the dispute collaboratively. An independent review of the Educational Psychology
service has been started, the terms of reference for the review have been shared with all parties
who are fully engaged with the review. Our priority is to deliver services for children
and their families.
A supplemental question?
Deputy Helen Miles - 0:38:44
Thank you, sir. Delays in dealing with grievance matters are becoming a feature for many departments.
indeed the prison governor expressed similar frustrations in her departure interview.
How are the state's employment board getting a grip on these matters?
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 0:38:58
Thank you, sir. This review is going to be carried out at speed.
It starts next week and will last for two weeks and a report will be produced into its findings five days after the end of that two -week period.
So this particular issue is being dealt with at pace to make sure that the educational psychology service is
Correct for Jersey and it is properly staffed and that young people are getting their needs served. So
College of St Lawrence
Connétable of St. Lawrence - 0:39:37
Thank you, sir. And will the minister advise how many educational psychologists are actually employed by the government now?
and what is the optimal number?
Thank you, sir. My understanding,
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 0:39:51
there is currently four educational psychologists,
although we are having to rely on external consultancy on this matter.
The review will make sure that the number of psychologists
that we have working is the right size for Jersey.
So that will be part of the throughput of this work
to make sure that the right staffing is available
to make sure that our children have their educational needs.
So, a little question, can you tell us?
Yes, sir.
If we're waiting for a review to tell us
what the exact number is,
Connétable of St. Brelade - 0:40:25
Connétable of St. Lawrence - 0:40:27
is the minister telling the assembly
that at the moment we're in the position
of not knowing how many educational psychologists
we should be employing to manage the needs
of our young people?
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 0:40:41
I think the review will make all that clear,
and that is the point of having the review,
to make sure that we have clarity around that question.
Deputy Captain Curtis.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Catherine Curtis - 0:40:59
At the moment the CEHA panel first heard of this problem,
we arranged a meeting with the representatives
of the educational psychologists.
We then arranged for a briefing with the Education Minister,
which I'm grateful for.
The panel continues to follow this up.
I believe the matter was first raised about eight months ago.
And seeing as it's such an important issue,
can the Minister explain why this matter was not dealt
with sooner?
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 0:41:25
Thank you, sir.
I, I, the, the, the background to this issue has,
has only surfaced fairly recently, has only come
across my radar recently.
So we did instruct for this review to be taken out at pace
as soon as we understood that there was a problem.
So beyond that, sir, I don't have any further information.
Subliminal question, deputies.
Just if the Minister could confirm
that he's only known about this recently
Deputy Catherine Curtis - 0:41:56
when I believe the grievance was first raised
many months ago.
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 0:42:03
That's correct that the grievance was raised months ago,
but the review into the service
as a whole has only surfaced recently so.
I've heard Deputy Renf and final supplementary.
Deputy Renf.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 0:42:18
So Deputy Miles' question raised was about the wider culture
and I don't feel it was particularly answered.
Is he confident, is the minister confident
that Jersey is meeting best practice in terms of dealing
with grievance procedures when they arise given the number
that seemed to have risen recently.
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 0:42:40
I was keeping my answers to the Educational Psychology Service
because that was the ambit of the question.
So that's why I answered purely on the service.
As for the wider issues, I'm happy to speak to those, sir.
And I can confirm that the ex -prison governor,
I have asked to meet with her so that she can air any issues that she has.
I can air them and I can deal with those issues as they arise.
But the thrust of my answer was to stick to the original questions.
A supplemental question, Deputy.
Yes, sir, if I may.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 0:43:27
Just following up Deputy Curtis' point, can you clarify
that he did not hear about the issues regarding the educational psychologists
until recently?
That's correct, sir.
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 0:43:43
Very well.
Final supplementary, Deputy Valls.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 0:43:47
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Helen Miles - 0:43:50
And I thank the Assistant Minister for his answers.
And I have to say I am concerned that a grievance of this nature that was raised
in February that has already attracted the interest of the chief internal auditor was
not brought to the attention of the state's employment board until now.
So my final supplementary really, you know, our education services need highly skilled
professionals to support our children, and particularly those who are vulnerable with
additional needs.
Is the chair at all concerned that states of Jersey is becoming a less attractive place
to work as a result of these unresolved high profile disputes?
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 0:44:28
I am concerned about that matter, sir, and this is why we have made sure
that this review is carried out at pace to make sure
that we do have the right service for our children's needs.
Very well.
We come to question four.
The Deputy General will ask of the Attorney General.
Deputy.

Oral Question 4 - Outcome of the joint tender process (OQ.220/2024)

Thank you, sir.

Oral Question 5 - Trainee minimum wage rates (OQ.203/2024)

What are the grounds in which Brittany Ferries or DFDS could take
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 0:44:53
legal action
against Jersey given the outcomes of the joint tender process?

Oral Question 4 - Outcome of the joint tender process (OQ.220/2024)

HM Attorney General - 0:45:06
Sir, a decision or determination of a public body, which includes a minister,
may be susceptible to a claim for judicial review.
So the possibility of a decision to abandon or terminate the joint tender process was provided
for in paragraphs 3 .2 and 10 .5 of the invitation to tender document or ITT,
which formed the basis of the joint tender process.
So in brief, clause 3 .2, its relevant parts provided for the avoidance
of doubt the states, which is Jersey and Guernsey, reserve the right
to alter the timings at any stage of this procurement process,
to withdraw the procurement at any time, terminate the procurement,
and where appropriate, to be able to re -advertise,
withdraw from the procurement process in its entirety at any time,
without liability to the bidders which have participated in the process.
Paragraph 10 .5 provided the states reserve the right not to follow up this ITT in any way
and or to cancel the procurement process and no expense incurred by any person in responding
to the ITT will be reimbursed and neither the states nor their advisors,
nor any third party will be liable to the bidder.
The states reserve the right not to award a contract.
So beyond that, it would not be appropriate
for me to comment further.
So I have a question, Deputy General.
Yes, thank you.
Are there precedences in Jersey law
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 0:46:44
where similar procurement challenges have led
to compensation or reversal of a decision in the past?
HM Attorney General - 0:46:52
Sir, I'm not aware of any specifically in relation
to procurement, but obviously that answer
is given off the top of my head without searching
all the judgments of the Jersey courts.
James Joseph.
Thank you, sir.
I would like to ask the attorney general.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 0:47:13
The question is being posed in this assembly,
and there is this convention or reality
of parliamentary immunity from prosecution or a civil action,
I think.
The Minister is, as he, as the Attorney General is,
is being very cautious in what is being actually said.
Islanders and members are difficult
because they don't know what's going on.
And is there a way that the Attorney General can advise
of what is possible to be stated about the negotiations
which could lead to a, which is great,
raising huge concern for Islanders, but they don't know
and so there's no confidence in the decision -making because
of the absence of the ability to say anything.
What can be said and can't be said in short, sir?
HM Attorney General - 0:48:02
So in short, parliamentary privilege
is an absolute form of privilege,
and it does protect anything that
is said or written in relation to the state's procedures,
state's debates.
However, just because that there is parliamentary privilege
which does not necessarily mean that it is advisable for a minister
or for a backbencher to comment in relation to a live procurement process
because there are sensitivities around negotiations,
which it is right do not enter the public domain.
So beyond that, I can't comment further.
Supplemental question, Deputy Osler.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 0:48:51
I appreciate the spirit in which the Attorney General's answered the question.
However, the Minister is trying as no doubt the legal officers and the Minister's advisors is dealing with what is known to be a debt pile and a financial unsustainable situation, but it can't be spelt out.
Why can't the facts be spelled out in terms
that the public can understand and be reassured
that the minister is making the right decisions or not?
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 0:49:24
So the responsibility is with the minister.
HM Attorney General - 0:49:26
It's obviously not with the public.
The public are not the decision makers.
The minister is the decision maker.
And I repeat my previous answer just
because parliamentary privilege is an absolute privilege,
it doesn't necessarily mean that it is appropriate to spell
out the contents of confidential negotiations in a public forum.
I have Deputy Reniff and final supplementary.
Deputy Reniff.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 0:50:00
Yes, sir. The Attorney General mentioned in his first answer
So the clauses in the tender agreement, tender document,
which appeared to give wide immunity to the government.
Is it nevertheless the case that a unhappy, unsuccessful bidder
might have legal claim for damages against Jersey
were there to be deficiencies alleged within the process
of awarding the contract?
HM Attorney General - 0:50:32
So I'm simply not going to comment further,
as I said in my first answer.
These are confidential negotiations,
and it doesn't help, frankly, to be
asked these sorts of questions in a public forum.
So I have a mental question, if you may.
Yes, sir.
It's an interesting answer.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 0:50:58
I mean, it doesn't help, perhaps, for ministers.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 0:51:01
But I think the public are very, very
keen to understand more about what is at risk here.
The minister has referred to legal issues.
I'm simply trying to find out whether, in principle, it
is possible that an unhappy bidder, unsuccessful bidder,
might have, in any circumstances,
theoretical circumstances, might have
a claim against the government for deficiencies
within the process.
HM Attorney General - 0:51:30
So as I said in my previous answer, my first answer, there is a potential for a claim
for judicial review in certain circumstances.
The traditional remedies on a claim for judicial review are basically to quash a decision
and invite the decision maker to consider the decision again.
It is possible, I think, in very rare circumstances for a claim for damages
to be made in judicial review, but the circumstances in which
that is available are restricted.
And beyond that, I'm afraid I simply cannot comment further.
Final supplementary, Debra -Jo.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 0:52:21
And I thought it was an interesting answer that Attorney General gave to Deputy Osif saying
that it was a live tender process.
But I would have thought that it wasn't a live tender process
anymore because the joint tender process has been finished
because Guernsey decided to not go with a joint tender process.
So in fact, the discussion and the questions
we've been asking the attorney general
was related to something that now is no longer because it's
not a joint tender process anymore,
and therefore ready for analysis and transparency
and understanding that particular process
because it is no longer alive.
Do you have a question?
But my question would be,
what are the potential long -term implications
for future tender processes, including now, I suppose,
the single processes that we and Guernsey are now under
in Jersey and I suppose in Guernsey,
if Brittany Ferries or DFDS are successful
in any challenges that they could bring
regarding the now closed joint tender process?
HM Attorney General - 0:53:28
You mean potential legal consequences?
Yes.
In my term, consequences rather than any other consequences?
Yes, sorry.
Yes, Lingyal.
Well, that's quite a broad question,
potential legal consequences.
It's rather difficult for me to speculate on that
because that could include, for example,
this assembly passing some legislation in relation to processes for procurement.
I think it's an impossible question for me to ask, but in relation to answers, sorry,
but in relation to the language that I used, I did actually say it's an ongoing discussion,
not an ongoing joint attend the process.
So the answer that I gave was in relation to the deputy's original question.
And my answer should be read in relation to the deputy's original question.

Oral Question 5 - Trainee minimum wage rates (OQ.203/2024)

We come to question five.
The deputy Andrews will ask the minister for social security.
Deputy Max Andrews - 0:54:40
Deputy Andrews, do we?
You'll be answering, yes.
Thank you, sir.
Felling the integration of training minimum wage rates
into a single baseline minimum wage from 1st of January 2024,
will the Assistant Minister advise what consideration,
if any, has been given to the reintroduction
of a training minimum wage rate or youth rate?
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Lyndsay Feltham - 0:55:05
The short answer is that there hasn't been active consideration
Deputy Sam Mézec - 0:55:09
of reintroducing either a training minimum wage rate
or a youth rate.
Both of those things would go against state's assembly
decisions, one of which was very recent.
There was the decision made when Deputy Andrews himself
brought a proposition to harmonize the trainee minimum
wage rates that was adopted by this assembly.
It was adopted with an amendment asking the minister
to do that by order rather than by legislation.
So theoretically, the door could still
be open in the future to reconsidering a trainee
rate if economic circumstances at the time suggested so.
But it's probably too soon since that harmonization
to be able to assess any economic impact from that.
And in regards to a youth rate, that
would have to be changed in legislation,
because legislation doesn't allow for different rates
to be set based on age.
And that is down to an amendment to legislation
that tried to introduce a youth rate that was brought in 2016.
It happened to be me as a backbencher who brought
that amendment to stop that from happening,
and that amendment was successful.
So we don't have a legal basis
for setting a youth rate at this point.
I have a mental question, Deputy.
Deputy Max Andrews - 0:56:25
We will come to question six that Deputy Duble will ask

Oral Question 6 - Children and Civil Status (OQ.210/2024)

of the Minister for Children and Families.
Deputy.
Deputy Louise Doublet - 0:56:34
Thank you, sir.
Will the Minister provide an update
on the progress of work on the Children and Civil Status
Amendments Jersey Law 2024, which
was adopted by the assembly on the 19th of March,
2024, including the consequential amendments
and any other work that is necessary to bring
the law into force.
Thank you, sir.
Connétable of St. Peter - 0:56:56
Sir, over the summer, work has continued
to identify extensive consequential amendments.
Officers have now identified 44 pieces of legislation
and require both minor and extensive levels of amendment.
And that's a considerable increase on the numbers
that we quoted earlier in the year.
The law drafting process for these is at an advanced stage.
And I'm hopeful that the consequential amendments
will be lodged before the end of the year,
or very early next year at the latest.
any delay will be as a result of those additional consequential amendments,
which of course puts more pressure on the Law Drafting Department.
An appointed day act bringing the law into force would follow by mid -2025.
Meanwhile, officers are working with various stakeholders on preparatory work necessary to implement the law.
A set of revised children's rules are also an advanced stage of drafting.
This is very complex work, but I remain committed to bringing this legislation
into force as soon as possible for families who are keenly and patiently waiting.
Thank you, sir.
supplemental question.
I thank the minister for his answer.
Deputy Louise Doublet - 0:58:21
I'm delighted to hear that it still seems to be of a high priority.
Could the Minister please advise the Assembly if there is going
to be a delay in lodging that and it is going
to go beyond the end of this year?
Could he please inform the Assembly
at the earliest convenience and also the families involved
and how he would go about informing those families
of that, please?
Connétable of St. Peter - 0:58:47
Sir, it would certainly from my point of view,
I would like to see this lodged by the end of the year.
But I also do not want to place further pressure
on the law de -opting department.
The numbers over the summer rose from 33 amendments to 44,
which is a 25 % increase.
Clearly, if there is a further delay,
we will bring that forward during the...
We will advise the Assembly.
As regards informing the families, well, I will work with our communications department
to find a suitable means of doing that.
Thank you.
Well, we come to the next question.

Oral Question 7 - Work Permit Policy and Procedures (OQ.218/2024)

Question seven, the Deputy Poree will ask the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs.
Deputy.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Beatriz Porée - 0:59:45
Will the Minister detail what work, if any, is being undertaken or planned
to include definition of modern slavery into the government work permit policy
and procedures or any related legislations?
Thank you.
Minister.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 1:00:09
The work permit policy contains reference to the risks of exploitation and the measures
that are in place to mitigate these risks and so address issues of modern day slavery.
Officers have been working closely with the Home Office on modern day slavery, specifically
on immigration matters. I take confidence that their findings that employment law, control
of housing and work legislation and immigration work policy have measures similar to those
in the UK that mitigate risk of exploitation. However, the work is ongoing.
Deputy Beatriz Porée - 1:00:42
Yes, thank you.
Does the minister feel that she has the full support
of her officers and the council of minister
to do this important work
of inserting the modern slavery definition
in the work permit policy that to me is instrumental
to make sure that the welfare
of migrant workers is protected within the legislation?
Thank you.
Minister.
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 1:01:10
So, I am fully confident that both offices within the department and the Council of Ministers
support me in relation to the matter of modern day slavery.
In relation to a definition, this is a complicated question to answer.
Neither the UK nor the Human Rights Convention tries to set a fixed definition of slavery,
which I assume is to allow flexibility in relation to dealing with it.
The UK College of Policing described slavery as the status or condition of a person over
whom any or all of the powers attaching the right of ownership are exercised.
That is the traditional view of the person being property.
That is far more restrictive definition than being required to undertake forced labour,
which the Forced Labour Convention defines as all work or services which is exacted from
any person under the menace of any penalty and for which they have not offered themselves voluntarily.
So in relation to how Jersey works in relation to work permit holders, I would want us to
be slightly less restrictive in the way that we look at modern day slavery. And so I would
want to see that we are looking closely at all of those work policies, all of those employers
and employees and how everything is working together to ensure that we do not ever find
ourselves in a position where people feel like they are in modern day slavery.
Thank you, sir. Like I'm sure other members, I declare an interest in
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 1:02:48
having had previously
before in this assembly having been involved in applying for work permits, but that's a
a wider issue.
So given the period of time that I was External Relations
Minister, my attention was drawn to the International Labor
Organization Convention, which the minister didn't set out
as one of the legal issues for her to have regard to.
Could she explain whether she has actually
asked that the forced labor convention, Article 29,
actually under protocol 2014 actually is relevant because I'm concerned and
continue to be concerned that there are practices such as charging people for
accommodation which is not compliant with the convention.
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 1:03:40
Minister. Sir, I'm not fully aligned as the deputy is in relation to the all of
the Convention. However, what I would say is that we do have, or I have had concerns,
and the reason that the modern day slavery legislation hasn't actually been progressed
at this stage was due to the fact that the UK has what they call UK Gangmasters Licensing
Act of 2004, which actually for Jersey would be quite difficult to implement due to the
level of resources that would be required. So this work needs to continue and I have instructed officers
both policy and operational departments to provide me with reassurance that
Jersey is looking at all of the matters in relation to modern -day slavery and the deputy talks about
accommodation and yes, I can fully understand why he thinks that this may be a risk if the
person is actually being provided accommodation and
and therefore if their work permit is terminated,
then they therefore lose their accommodation.
This is an ongoing piece of work, which I think Jersey will need
to continue working with, sir, into the future,
because things change and we need to make sure
that at all stages we are ensuring that people that come
to work in Jersey are treated properly, fairly, and equally.
I have a mental question, please.
I'm grateful for the Minister's response,
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 1:05:12
But may I particularly press her on,
is the minister aware that practices
such as unauthorized deductions, not only for accommodation,
but from work firm holders' wages for travel
and other expenses in other places
compliant with the ILO standards are incompatible?
And we're talking about lifting the minimum wage
to the living wage, where actually
the elephant in the room, if I am correct in my assumptions,
is the fact that the minimum wage is not
being applied for correctly to migrant workers.
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 1:05:52
So there's lots of elements to that question.
I think in relation to the part that the deputy talks about,
where people are having accommodation
deducted without authority, I am not aware of that.
There is elements that we raised within our work policy review
and our concerns in relation to how tax and Social Security
and other deductions were made and that all
of that information was provided prior to the person taking
on a work permit and coming to work in Jersey.
I think it is also important from the aspect
of what happens before employees come to Jersey.
And this was another thing that we were quite concerned about,
is that people were being charged a certain amount of money
in order to come to Jersey to work.
And that is something that we are going to look at,
that is something that was highlighted at the time,
and it is still like it is for the Deputy of Concern of mine,
because we do not want people to be in debt coming to the island
and having to therefore work purely to be able to pay off that debt.
When they talk about gang masters in the UK,
this is basically what this is all about,
is that it's about the recruitment of people
and how they are recruited.
And as I said, myself and the Social Security Minister
are looking at these elements
and whether they're something that we need to do further
in relation to recruitment and agencies
and how people are actually coming to the island.
So my question was actually about travel.
What did the Minister answer?
Presiding Officer - 1:07:37
I'm about to say I have next Deputy Duble, Deputy General
and final supplementary, no others.
I was about to remind members,
although I did permit the question to come through,
that of course the question is about the definition
of modern day slavery being introduced into legislation.
And I'm conscious that we have stretched broader than that
and I'm going to reign it back.
Deputy Duble.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Louise Doublet - 1:08:01
Can the minister advise whether she has changed any
of the ministerial responses to the scrutiny panel's report in this area and what areas
of work she is undertaking, specifically the recommendations around modern slavery and
exploitation?
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 1:08:19
The answer to that is no, sir. I haven't changed any of the responses to the recommendations.
We said we were going to do all the recommendations and both myself and the Social Security Minister
have been doing exactly that.
This is an fundamental question, Deputy DuBois.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Louise Doublet - 1:08:37
Yes, in particular reference to any migrant workers who are experiencing issues around
modern slavery and being exploited, where would they be able to go in the island to
seek help if they feel they're being exploited?
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 1:08:52
There is currently a facility at the Social Security at CLS where people can go,
and that is going to be revised potentially in the future to another area,
as in under the remit of the Assistant Minister, Deputy Elves.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 1:09:24
When the minister stood up here in late January asking us to support her as the new Minister
for Justice and Home Affairs, one of her main promises was to work on the modern -day slavery
and do everything that she can related to this area that she had identified as something
that was important to pull through.
But yet, when I hear her answer to Deputy Poiret's
original question about legislation and procedures
on what is being planned or undertaken,
I didn't hear very much.
This is significant comment.
So could you?
And really your purpose is to ask a question.
I will.
And as succinctly as possible, please ask it.
I will.
Apologies.
So would the Minister be able to explain
beyond business as usual what concrete activities she will be doing to progress
support around modern day slavery issues within Jersey and any related
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 1:10:28
legislation. My remit in relation to modern day slavery has not changed. I'm
still determined that we will look at what we can do in relation to modern day
slavery. As I explained, sir, the issue that we have that the law in relation to the UK
for modern day slavery has a significant impact in relation to the UK's Gang Masters Licensing
Act of 2004, which exists to provide protection to a completely different employment environment.
We need to resolve that matter, sir. We need to look at how we can actually, in Jersey,
deal with that matter and therefore introduce some form of legislation.
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 1:11:16
Please could the ministers provide a timeline in relation to looking at this?
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 1:11:21
So in relation to this particular piece of legislation,
obviously the deputy will be aware that the priority rests with the violence against women and girls.
I would hope by the time that this particular government has completed its term of office
that I will be significantly further forward in relation to modern day slavery.
The final supplementary, Deputy Pory.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Beatriz Porée - 1:11:50
Could the Minister please explain how does she intends to protect migrant workers
against modern slavery without a definition that is fit for purpose
and it is within the legislation?
Thank you.
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 1:12:03
I think as I've explained the definition of modern -day slavery sir puts it
actually implies that somebody is property and I think the thing is is
that I think that is quite to me a significant thing and it is quite also
quite difficult to actually prove and I know that people who've worked with the
UK legislation find those difficulties sir and so what I would want to do is
have something that ensures that Jersey is not
at that high level, that we are looking at things closer
and more concise so that we can actually deal
with them efficiently as opposed to legislation
which only classes somebody as property.
Because I think it's far more important, sir,
that we actually look at it at a lower level.
We will come to question eight that Deputy Reniff will ask
of the Chief Minister.
Deputy.

Oral Question 8 - Discussions and decisions on the new ferry contract (OQ.214/2024)

Thank you, sir.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 1:12:58
Will the Chief Minister detail what role, if any, he has
and is having in the discussions and decisions being made relating
to the new ferry contract.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 1:13:09
Firstly, as members will know, Deputy Morell,
as Minister for Sustainable Economic Development is responsible politically
and legally for this area, sir, and he has my full support in this role.
So my own role has related to my capacity as Chief Minister and Chair
of the Council of Ministers in supporting
the coordination of overall government business.
This includes concurrent responsibility
for external relations with the Minister for External Relations
given the diplomatic implications
of this particular piece of work.
I have more recently worked closely
with the Minister for Sustainable Economic
Development and the Minister for External Relations
and other ministers and sought to support good quality discussion at the council of ministers when updated,
when provided with updates more recently of the tender process and its progress.
As members, I'm sure we'll appreciate this decision has potentially wide ranging and long term consequences for Jersey.
sir, there are financial, economic, logistical,
diplomatic, legal ramifications, sir.
And as we seek to improve our sea connectivity,
it's absolutely vital that we maintain a cross -government
approach, sir, work together to find a consensus, sir,
keep members and members of the public updated, sir,
and seek to find the right solution as soon as possible.
Thank you.
Supplemental question, Deputy.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 1:14:46
Yes, sir. We've had a joint process for nine months that has collapsed.
There was then an attempt to negotiate separately that led to a stinging letter
from the Hospitality Association and a panicky attempt to extend the contract to Condor.
Today we learned that that too has collapsed and a new process is underway.
What does the Chief Minister have to say to the public who have expressed considerable anger
on this and who think that this is an omnishambles?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 1:15:15
So I'd first like to correct the deputy in his assumptions
and just provide what actually has happened,
has been outlined by the minister.
The tender process was unable to reach a conclusion.
And so that was abandoned in line
with the terms and conditions of the process.
Following that, the minister has been
quite clear of the way forward, which
is to seek further discussion in a new approach
with both original bidder, sir.
And that is what he has explained to the public
on a number of occasions, sir.
That is the process we are now following.
So he's been more circumspect and, I think,
sensible about giving out too much information
in this assembly, notwithstanding, sir,
parliamentary privileges.
It's simply not sensible or advisable to give too much
detail away while we are in the middle of a negotiation.
I am very alive to the concerns of the hospitality association,
Although it is worth noting in previous years as an advice,
that Condor have published timetables in December.
That doesn't necessarily make it right.
We need to get a decision made, timetables published,
and more assurance for the public as soon as possible.
So that's what the minister
and other ministers are working to achieve.
Deputy Gardner, did you put your light on?
I can't. No, you didn't.
Deputy Inna Gardiner - 1:16:47
I sort of must have been saying things.
Deputy Osgood.
Presiding Officer - 1:16:51
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 1:16:53
Sir, the Chief Minister is very aware
of this whole issue having been the Economic Development Minister
for two terms.
Can he explain to the Assembly to what extent he has chaired
Council of Ministers meetings about this issue,
and would he be prepared to say whether or not he has taken a
position on one ferry operator or another?
He is in this Assembly, he can speak,
and he can avoid the unhelpful rumour mill that says that
actually he's favoured Condor all the way through.
Can you put the record straight?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 1:17:27
So first part of the question, sir, is in the last month,
I think since this became a live situation following Guernsey's
announcement, I have chaired two council
ministers specifically related meetings, specifically
related to this issue, sir.
I can ask, sir, whether the question, two of the questions
is in order understanding order 10 .6, 10 paragraph 6B
that a question should not seek a particular point of view.
Well, I think you're simply being asked, Chief,
as to whether you favor a particular participant or not.
Which is the standing order reference?
Do you wish to address that?
Standing order 10, paragraph 6, paragraph B, sir.
Presiding Officer - 1:18:19
You mean the one that 10 -2, which says a question addressed
to a member of the states upon a public matter
for which the member has an official responsibility must
either seek information on the matter or ask
for official action with regard to it.
That is the section we're looking at.
I don't have the standing order in front of me.
But is that the section in which you are?
I take the view that the chief minister does not
have to say whether he favors one or another
or whether historically he has favored one or another.
The matter of him choosing to do so or not
is not a matter for the standing orders,
and it's a matter for his discretion within the answer.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 1:19:19
So whilst I think it would be unwise to start expressing
views on that in the middle of a discussion with operators,
I would say, sir, that I feel the council ministers have
acted impartially.
Both office have strength and weaknesses,
and my preference is simply to find the very best
option for Jersey.
Thank you.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 1:19:46
And so the concern within the public about this issue
as advanced as asked by other members is enormous.
It has massive implications to the economy.
I'm asking the chief minister about his role and to ensure
that he can give confidence in a transparent and open way.
He asked a point of order, sir, which you ruled that he could
answer it if he wanted to.
He is the chief minister.
And I'm asking him to give confidence
that this issue is absolute transparent and proper.
And if he was to be questioned in a private session,
whether he could answer these questions in a manner which
would strengthen public confidence.
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 1:20:32
I think I've said I neither favor Brittany Ferries.
or DFDS in this situation.
They're both reliable and reputable shipping companies,
both capable, in my opinion, of serving the islands well.
We've heard from the Sustainable Economic Development Minister
that there are more details to go into around financing,
around competition, freight rates, logistics, timetables,
diplomatic relationships with our neighbors in Guernsey
in France logistical issues, depending on when one service
was to stop and the next service to start, sir.
Economic issues, sir.
Financial implications around contingency.
This is a hugely important decision.
And the Minister for Sustainable Economic Development
is absolutely right to make sure we have done all of the work,
sir.
One of the key points of leadership, sir,
is centered around decision making.
and that is the ability to make a decision properly informed,
often under pressure, sir, while considering what's
in our very best interest.
So that's what the minister is trying to do, sir.
That's what the council ministers are trying to do.
I have Deputy Journes, Deputy IEA, and then Deputy Pore.
There's no time for further, and in fact,
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 1:21:53
we're running significantly over on this question now.
So Deputy Journes.
Thank you, sir.
Could the chief minister advise what discussions he's had
with his counterpart in Guernsey from when he became chief
minister 10 months ago regarding how to ensure the joint
tendering process would follow standard procurement procedures
and regulations and avoid a process succumbing
to favoritism or bias?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 1:22:16
I've had no discussions with my counterpart chief minister
of Guernsey, particularly related
to the questions she's asked.
We've talked generally about it.
And the last time we spoke, sir, was on a team's meeting
with ministers when Guernsey informed us of their decision
and how they were going to announce it.
Supplemental question, Deputy Chair.
No, thank you, sir.
Deputy IEA.
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 1:22:43
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Steve Ahier - 1:22:45
Was the Chief Minister made aware
of the seven -month contract extension announced
by the Economic Minister before it was released to the media,
and did the Chief Minister agree with such an approach?
Thank you, sir.
Yes, sir.
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 1:22:58
I was aware, and I thought it was a sensible approach.
It was a genuine attempt to provide some assurance
for next summer, to enable more time for further discussions
to be had with both operators.
The offer was made with the very best will,
sir, purely to provide assistance to the operators
and to allow more time to make the discussion, sir,
and get the timetables up so the traveling public could
avail to those.
That's up to the question, Deputy Iyer.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Steve Ahier - 1:23:36
Did the chief minister know that the Brittany Ferries in Condor
had been notified of such an approach
before the approach was made?
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 1:23:50
No, sir.
I didn't know that, sir.
Very well.
Devli Pore.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Beatriz Porée - 1:24:01
During those discussions in his role,
would the chief minister indicate
when he knew what guns they were opting for Condor
and how far behind the public announcement was this?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 1:24:18
Sir, Jersey was informed, I believe,
at a meeting on Friday.
I've got my diary in front of me, 17th of October.
Jersey was informed that Guernsey
intended to make an announcement that after noon.
After discussion, Sir Guernsey agreed
that they would delay that until the following Wednesday, Sir,
because we'd informed Guernsey that we
hadn't taken the matter to the council of ministers
for review, Sir.
That was basically how it panned out.
Thank you.
That's the fundamental question, Deputy Corey.
Thank you, sir.
Final supplementary, Deputy Rediff.
Deputy Beatriz Porée - 1:25:00
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 1:25:03
Yes, sir. I think looking from outside, this looks
like a very chaotic process.
I would ask the Chief Minister, what does he have to say to those
who take the view that this shows
that this is another example of government,
where the bigger the decision, the greater the indecision?
I think the deputy, sir, is being opportunist and taking
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 1:25:24
potshots at the government for political gains.
I'm not focusing on supporting the government
to come to a decision properly thought through.
And I would say to members of the public,
sir, that the government is addressing this
as a matter of top priority.
We deeply regret that we weren't able to come
to a joint decision with Guernsey, sir.
We deeply regret that we've had to extend the timeframe
so we can come to the right solution, sir.
But I would absolutely stress to members of the public,
it is important we take the appropriate time
to get the decision right, sir, because if we get it wrong,
there are serious ramifications.
We come to question nine.
The Deputy I .A. will ask for the Minister for Sustainable
and Economic Development.

Oral Question 9 - Remote Gambling Operator licences (OQ.206/2024)

Deputy I .A.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Steve Ahier - 1:26:14
Further to the publication of the Jersey Gambling Commission annual report 2023,
will the minister advise what consideration, if any, has been given to the decline
in the number of remote gambling operator licenses
and advise why the social responsibility fund has remained unused?
Thank you, sir.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 1:26:36
And I thank the deputy for a question on a different subject.
The decline in remote gambling operator licenses
in the past year is a direct result of the acquisition
of the Jersey -based businesses by Entain and their transfer
to Gibraltar, which is Entain's offshore headquarters.
The move is not a reflection of their performance in Jersey,
as far as we understand it, and is purely a business decision
made by the new parent company for operational reasons.
With regard to the Commission's Social Responsibility Fund,
it has been building for a number of years.
and the Commission's intent was to use that money
to fund the delivery by an independent third sector provider
to deliver treatment and counseling services.
Unfortunately, the board of that external provider
took a strategic decision to pull away
from its overseas work the same week
that the contract was due to be signed,
and so the project has been temporarily paused.
Nevertheless, the Commission continues
to provide support to Islanders needing assistance
and is liaising with health and community services
to see how the Commission can fund educational and promotional material,
signposting a treatment service being developed within adult mental health.
Supplemental question.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Steve Ahier - 1:27:46
The tiny jurisdiction of Alderney has 26 e -gaming licenses,
issuing five new licenses in 2023 alone,
reaping $4 .4 million in fees.
In contrast, Jurti has four remote gambling operators,
but this will decrease by two this year.
What action is the minister going to take
to address this governance failure,
remembering that the Jersey Gambling Commission,
not so long ago, issued a license
to the disgraced football index, which was a Ponzi scheme?
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 1:28:20
Thank you, sir.
I think our island has, over the last 20 years or so,
had an interesting relationship with gambling,
And certainly, we know, I'm sure states members know,
Alderney actually moved into the remote gambling space
before Jersey did and in that sense got a head start.
So I speak regularly with the Gambling Commission,
and I thank them for all their hard work.
I think they do a superb job.
And one of the things that I think
has been difficult for the Gambling Commission
is the way they were set up almost asked them to both,
in one sense, kind of make Jersey attractive
as a place for remote operator licenses,
but at the same time they have to regulate
and it's not right to really build onto the regulator
any sort of promotional element.
I have spoken in the past informally
with the Gambling Commission about this
and because I do believe there is room for us to grow
our remote operator license business in the island
And so I think it's important that it is not particularly
the regulator that is tasked with that.
And so I am looking to understand
how we may develop a way of promoting the island as a place
for remote operator licenses without compromising
the Gambling Commission's integrity.
Because obviously, as the regulator,
it has to regulate rather than promote.
This is a current insight into my own thinking on the matter,
because I do think Jersey can be more of a base
for remote operator licenses than it currently is.
We will come to question 10.
The Deputy Osif will ask of the Minister

Oral Question 10 - Prescribed medicinal cannabis (OQ.204/2024)

for Health and Social Services.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 1:30:06
Sorry, I just got the wrong question.
I'm sorry, my computer slipped.
Will the minister indicate at stake
the number of prescriptions of medicinal cannabis to date,
indicate the primary conditions for which they
have been prescribed, and advise what consequences have been
reported, if any, relating to prescribed medicinal cannabis?
Apologies for hesitation in answering the question.
Minister.
Deputy Tom Binet - 1:30:44
So I'm afraid I'm only able to report on prescriptions that
have actually been dispensed.
But I suspect those numbers will be
very similar to the numbers of prescriptions
that have actually been issued.
The most recent audit was published in March of this year
and indicated that just under 19 ,000 prescriptions
were dispensed in the period January to September 22.
And that suggests an annualized rate
of about 25 ,000 prescriptions.
The audit also indicated that around 6 %
of the island's working age population
when receipt of unlicensed medical cannabis.
This is significantly higher than the UK
and their working age population figure is .05%.
With regard to the primary medical conditions
for which cannabis was prescribed, I regret to say
that we're not able to gather this information.
Only when EMIS, the patient record system, is made available
to all cannabis prescribers will this be possible.
As for any consequences that might result from the issue
of prescriptions for medical cannabis,
Our own medical health services report anecdotally
that there's been an increase in the number of people presenting
with acute mental illness who have been using
significant amounts of prescribed and or illicit
cannabis.
I'm also aware that a recent inquest concluded
that medical cannabis was likely to have had
an adverse effect on the mental health of the person concerned,
albeit at an earliest point in time.
So I've probably exceeded my 70 words,
but I'm very happy to answer any further questions.
You had 2 and 1 half seconds to go,
But there we are.
So I've got a question.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 1:32:15
So I'm very grateful for the minister's very fulsome answer,
and particularly the important reference
that he made in the last of mental health issues
with very serious consequences.
I think that now is not the right time
to basically develop these issues,
because it's a massive issue.
Does the minister agree that there
is a potential growing issue which his medical and health
department is going to have to deal with following
this assembly's decision to legalize prescription
cannabis.
And would you agree that that is important that we,
as an assembly, have full information
and he is clear about the negative effects
that this decision, well -intentioned although,
is having?
Deputy Tom Binet - 1:33:08
Yes, sir, I agree with everything that Deborah Dosef has said to say on the subject.
It would appear that we're in a situation where a previous assembly has gone ahead and
legalized medicinal cannabis without having put in place any of the required operating
frameworks or necessary legislation to make sure the job is done properly.
So we're in a position of playing catch -up, and I can assure the assembly that we're making
a great deal of effort.
I sent out an email several days ago which detailed the actions
that we're currently undertaking and we're moving as quickly
as we can because I agree we're in a very awkward position, sir.
Thank you.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 1:33:47
And the minister and Deputy Joseph have touched on questions
that I was going to ask about this link with the development
of psychosis and mental health issues with those prescribed
with medical marijuana.
And my question to the minister would
be, is he monitoring the risk of this increased amount of people
in Jersey developing these mental health issues?
Deputy Tom Binet - 1:34:12
Well, I think we're monitoring the risk to the greatest
extent that we can.
The mental health services are acutely
aware of the situation.
Once we've got EMIS, the patient records,
running through all the prescribers,
they will be able to see the patient records of those
concerned and perhaps have a little bit more information about the prescriptions
that they that they're able to issue so I think that that in itself is going to
help the situation. So that's a question. Yes sir and what support is the
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 1:34:42
Minister developing to put in place for those specifically who have developed
mental health issues around those on medical marijuana? So we're not doing
Deputy Tom Binet - 1:34:56
anything specific as I said we're mindful of it and we're using all of
what you would expect us to do under those circumstances.
Mr. Coles.
Thank you, sir.
Can the minister confirm whether or not the dosage and volume
Deputy Tom Coles - 1:35:10
of medicinal cannabis that is prescribed
is currently recorded?
And if so, if not, will this be something
that will be done going forward?
I'm going to think that's all being recorded
Deputy Tom Binet - 1:35:22
by the people who are prescribing at the moment.
But that, once again, doesn't seem
part of the medical records because they
haven't got access to that should form part of that once that's all in place.
Deputy Tom Coles - 1:35:37
Can the Minister confirm when they hope to achieve the medical records to be shared between
the department and private prescribers?
Deputy Tom Binet - 1:35:46
I'm not able to provide precise date but once we've got a clearer idea I'm very happy to
pass that information on to the Deputy Sir.
Final supplementary Deputy Asef.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 1:35:57
And I was grateful for the minister's absolute candor
in answering the question.
But can I put this into the wider context
that the minister is responsible for growth
oversight of medicinal cannabis and its prescribing,
and also the production of it in large facilities that
have a huge capacity, whether that be in St. John's or St.
Mary's or wherever it is?
And can he advise the assembly and advise me
and how he is reconciling what he says on the one hand, which
is there is undoubted issues arising from prescribing
medicinal cannabis and effectively the island
promoting itself as a place to grow this stuff
and seeing all the financial consequences of doing that.
He's been to meetings with medicinal cannabis providers.
And I just want to understand how he's actually reconciling
these two genuinely difficult things.
Deputy Tom Binet - 1:36:50
I'm slightly confused by the question, sir.
But it strikes me as a relatively separate producing
meat.
It has to be accepted that the prescribing event
of medical cannabis is down to the GPs.
And that's a professional requirement on their part.
And the production of cannabis has
to be done in accordance with all
of the requirements of the law.
And it could well be the case that all of the production
that's ever done in Jersey ends up being exported to elsewhere.
So it may well be that some of it gets used locally.
but I don't really think the two things are necessarily connected.
Very well.
We come to question 11.
That Deputy Wall will ask the Minister for Infrastructure.
Deputy.

Oral Question 11 - Property maintained by Jersey Property Holdings (OQ.211/2024)

Thank you, sir.
Deputy David Warr - 1:37:35
Can the Minister clarify how the service schedule of materials used
for each property maintained by Jersey property holdings is determined?
Minister.
Thank you, sir, and I thank the Deputy for his question.
Connétable of St. John - 1:37:47
So due to the diverse range and complexity of projects undertaken
by the department, the approach to determining material specifications is tailored to the
specific risks and complexities associated with each project.
Dr. Mitchell, question.
Yes, sir.
Deputy David Warr - 1:38:06
It's been brought to my attention by the manufacturers of the yellow paint recently applied to the
steps outside of the Lido of Depar that is not recommended for use in an environment
where the paint is submerged in salt water on a regular basis.
I understand that this specification is written by a London -based consultancy firm, whom in
the written answer to WQ405, the minister described as having extensive experience in
building, surveying, conditions assessments, defect analysis, remedial actions, et cetera.
Can the minister advise who determined that this was an appropriate paint and how Jez
Property Holdings intend to rectify the situation?
And does the minister think his department are getting value for money from this organization
given his comments that, and I quote,
it was a conscious decision to seek best value
for the taxpayer.
Connétable of St. John - 1:38:55
Sir, with respect, sir, I can't be expected to know
what type of paint is being used on each property, sir.
The fact that the deputies bought this to my attention, sir,
I'm happy to take that away.
The answer to the written question, sir,
was based on factual information.
It's a reputable company, sir.
If they've made an error, I shall seek that out, sir,
and I'll come back to the deputy and members.
Thank you.
Very well.
We come to question 12.
Deputy Wilson will ask of the chair

Oral Question 12 - Supporting Islanders amidst cost-of-living challenges (OQ.213/2024)

of the state's employment board.
Deputy.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Karen Wilson - 1:39:25
Will the chair detail the rationale
for moving the December pay date for state's employees
from mid -December to the end of the month
and advise how this change aligns
to the government's commitment
to supporting islanders amidst a cost
of living challenge during a period traditionally associated
with increased expenses.
Minister.
Thank you, sir.
And I thank the deputy for the question.
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 1:39:50
It's important to emphasize that the request initially came
from unions and employees who were informed at the start
of this year of the changes.
And we have sent update reminders throughout the year
to ensure employees are fully aware.
Public servants were first advised of the change
on the 1st of February 2024.
Prior to this, the unions and employment relations
were in discussions to facilitate the change request.
Further communications have been sent as reminders.
We have placed reminders on pay slips
to all employee and all public servants.
We have provided manager updates
to remind staff of this change.
And we have arranged for November pay slips
to confirm that if anyone is in financial hardship as a result
of this change, to please contact reward
at gov .je before the 6th of December and we'll be able
to pay early probably around the 18th of December.
This will be communicated in a subsequent manager update
to all staff to remind them that if they want
to get paid early, they can do that on time.
Supplemental question, Deputy.
Thank you, sir, and I thank the deputy for his response.
Deputy Karen Wilson - 1:41:13
We still haven't heard the reason
for why the unions requested it, and I wondered
if the deputy could elaborate on that, please.
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 1:41:24
Yes, sir. When it comes to budgeting, employees like
to be paid regular pay at regular time intervals,
and whilst I think historically people were paid early
for Christmas. The flip side of that or the downside is it becomes seven weeks till the
next pay date. So anyone who is actually on a tight budget finds it harder to budget when
there is such a stretch into January to wait for the next pay date. And of course, there
is a pre -Christmas spend but there's also a post -Christmas spend, January sales and
the like.
Sir, well gonna Thompson Savior
Connétable of St. Martin - 1:42:08
Connétable of St. Saviour - 1:42:11
Thank you, sir in times past most people had a little put by for the Christmas period
But sadly now people are living
Paycheck to paycheck, but does the minister not feel that it should be paid earlier as normal
So that people can buy their families presents and give their families the Christmas lunch. They all deserve
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 1:42:33
Thank you, sir, and I thank my connotar for that question.
As I stated earlier, anyone who wants or needs to be paid earlier and is a public servant
can apply for that separately.
If any employee genuinely feels that it's going to affect their Christmas, then there
is a mechanism to allow that.
Of course, as state members, we are part of that same process.
So I would extend that invitation to anyone of our number
who feels that they want to get paid early
to contact the Chief People Officer
who can put that in place for them.
Thank you, sir.
So I've got a little question, Director.
Deputy Coles.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Tom Coles - 1:43:19
And I'd like to thank the Assistant Chair of the SEB
for working with the unions to bring this forward.
As somebody who campaigned for this
with my previous employment being paid this later date
would have been very satisfactory for me.
The one concern I do have, and I hope the member can confirm,
that all processes have been checked
to ensure that people are still paid on time
due to the continuous bank holidays we
get through December.
And obviously, these can sometimes put a slight delay
on payments, but just want to ensure
that everybody gets paid on time.
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 1:43:51
Yes, sir.
The actual pay date will be the 31st of December,
which is a working day, so it will land in people's accounts as usual.
So I have a question for you.
Well, nobody has it.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 1:44:09
Sir, I wonder whether the, I don't envy the position of the deputy chair,
but does he understand the message that is being sent out?
It's okay, you can get paid early, but you've got
to tell us you've got financial problems.
Does he not recognize and does those
that he serves within on the state's employment
board and the officials recognize that there
is a cost of living crisis?
As the previous questioner has said,
people are living paycheck to paycheck.
And that there is a hidden likely number
of people in this island who are civil servants, et cetera,
who are going to simply be struggling
over a period of festivity that otherwise will
or simply, does he not understand any compassion and feeling
for the impact that this is having in just relying on
what a technocratic issue of revealing
confidential information?
Thank you, sir.
I thank the deputy for that question.
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 1:45:06
I completely understand people
who are struggling financially, sir.
In my previous role, I dealt with people
who are struggling financially on a daily basis.
And that's why we have put in place a mechanism
to allow anyone, whether they're struggling financially or not,
to be paid early if they so wish.
But I just refer back to my previous answer,
where very often, in my experience,
people struggle financially more in January
than they do in December.
And having to wait seven weeks for the next pay date,
for most people, causes more hardship
than actually being paid early.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 1:45:55
The vice chair has said that the new information,
which he can reconfirm again very briefly,
is that previously it was if you had financial issues,
you could ask to be paid early.
That meant the confidentiality was broken.
He said, and can he restate and confirm for the avoidance
of any doubt, simply an email from any member of staff says
that they need to be, they'd like to be paid earlier
will suffice for an early payment.
Is that the case?
That's correct, sir.
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 1:46:23
Final supplementary, Deputy Wilson.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Karen Wilson - 1:46:30
I would ask if the minister would consider just evaluating
the effect of this, given the change,
and if he could give us some indication as to whether or not
that would be something that the state's employment board would
be interested to evaluate.
Thank you.
Yes, sir.
Deputy Malcolm Ferey - 1:46:46
Thank the deputy for that question.
It is indeed.
Whenever there's a change made,
there's always going to be winners and losers
and there's always going to be people that benefit from it
and people that prefer the way it was.
So I will commit to undertaking a review in January
of how that process has worked.
Yes, we come now to question 13.
The Deputy Renfrew will ask for the Minister

Oral Question 13 - Windfarm in Jersey’s waters (OQ.215/2024)

for the Environment, Deputy.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 1:47:11
Further to the adoption of P82 -2023,
will the Minister update the Assembly
on the policy and legislation required
to move forward with building a wind farm in Jersey's waters.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Steve Luce - 1:47:27
Sir, I want to tell the deputy and the assembly
that I remain committed to this important work.
I will be bringing both the primary legislation
and a proposition on the leasing of the seabed
to this assembly for debate within this term of government.
During the in -principle debate earlier this year,
there were a large number of questions from state's members
that need to be resolved in order for us all
to make an informed decision about the wind farm.
My officers are now in the process of more detailed work
to investigate these issues so that when I return here
for further debate, we can all make
the most informed decision.
Thank you, sir.
Supplemental question, Deputy.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 1:48:09
Yes, sir.
What discussions has the minister or his colleagues
had with Guernsey, the UK, and France
regarding such issues as potential market access
and other related matters.
Deputy Steve Luce - 1:48:23
Thank you, sir.
I can tell the Assembly that only last week,
beginning of last week, I think it was,
I spent two days in Guernsey discussing climate impact
and also wind farms, and in those discussions
were also members from, officers from the Isle of Man.
We're in regular discussions with both Guernsey
in the island about these issues.
I know the minister sitting alongside me
met up with the UK government minister in New York
recently, where he discussed wind farms.
And certainly, I can tell the assembly
that my team and I are in regular contact
with colleagues in France, including
the regional department for the environment, planning,
and housing, the two preface from Normandy and Brittany,
the parliament of the sea and French ministers.
is the issue of all the subject of projects for wind farms
is of great importance to France.
They have huge aspirations for more offshore wind around us
in the Bay of the Seine and the Bay of Granville.
And they're taking great interest.
But certainly, I just want to go back to the discussions
I had with Guernsey recently, which
was very, very good and fruitful.
And Guernsey, too, are moving forward with their own plans.

Oral Question 14 - Island’s zero-ten tax system (OQ.205/2024)

Well, we come to question 14 that Deputy Andrews will ask
of the Minister for Treasury and Resources.
Deputy Max Andrews - 1:49:50
Deputy. Thank you, sir.
Will the minister advise what communication, if any,
she has had with her counterparts in Guernsey
or the Isle of Man in relation to updating
or mending the Ireland -10 tax system?
And if none, why is that the case?
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Elaine Millar - 1:50:13
So I have confirmed a few times previously that I have no plans
to change Jersey's -10 corporate income tax regime.
Jersey has an ongoing dialogue
with the other crowd dependencies including
on tax matters.
However, I have not had any discussions or communications
with them about changing Jersey's -10 regime.
This is not something I'm contemplating.
Nor is it something that is included
in the proposed budget 2025, which is due to be debated later this month.
On a separate note from 010, members will remember that the Pillar 2 regime was unanimously
adopted by the state's assembly last month.
Those entities which are not impacted by Pillar 2, which are the vast majority of our companies,
will remain in the 010 regime.
Pillar 2 affects a relatively small number of large multinational enterprises operating
in Jersey.
In 2025, these entities will pay a corporate income tax of 15 %
in line with the OECD's global minimum tax framework.
This is a positive step for Jersey
and maintains Jersey's reputation
as being fully aligned with international tax standards.
Thank you, sir.
Just an fundamental question.
Yes, please, sir.
Deputy Max Andrews - 1:51:27
Does the minister believe it to be fair that we have businesses
is in this island who pay zero tax when we have middle earners
in JASI who are paying a marginal income
tax rate of 26%.
Deputy Elaine Millar - 1:51:45
So the island's corporate tax, the island's corporate income
tax regime is built on the pillars of tax neutrality
and transparency.
It meets international standards on taxation
and has served this island well, allowing our financial services
sector to flourish and provides employment
for thousands of people.
The proposed budget forecasts the corporate tax regime
to contribute 221 million in tax revenue for 2025,
so it is vital that measures be taken do not impinge
on the performance of the corporate sector.
Thank you, sir.
W. Joseph.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 1:52:23
Sir, I arise to ask a question
to reassure the member that's asking this,
that she is still of the view that a very challenging
decision to introduce -10, which
had deleterious consequences in the short term,
but had massive advantages by maintaining our finance
industry and our competitiveness that with this assembly
dealt with, and she would, given the benefit of hindsight
in this regard, whilst difficult,
the -10 issue was imposed upon us by the European Code
of compliance and would she agree that actually it is meant
that Jersey's economy is as strong as it is today compared
to other places that are seeing deficits
and having to introduce GST late?
Deputy Elaine Millar - 1:53:15
Yes, sir, I do agree with the deputy and I thank him
for his question.
As I've just said, -10 has served the island well
and it means we have a thriving financial services sector
which is continuing to compete
in an increasingly competitive market, and we will continue,
it is important that we continue our work to ensure both
that Jersey remains competitive as an international finance
center and the work being led by my colleague, Deputy Gorst,
following the introduction of pillar two, we'll very much focus
on ensuring competitiveness
and indeed building growth in our economy.
Thank you.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 1:53:55
we'll come to question 15.

Oral Question 15 - Cost-effective freight services and sustainable market competition (OQ.212/2024)

That Deputy Osvold asks the Minister
for Sustainable Economic Development, Deputy.
So I think in the interest of time,
having this question already ventilated,
it's the same version of a different result.
So with the Minister's permission
and your permission, I think I withdraw it.
Yes, I'll consider it.
We've already answered it, unless the Minister.
I want to pose it and the Minister
wants to say anything else.
but we really ventilated this quite a bit.
I'm going to question 16, thank you very much, Deputy.

Oral Question 16 - Draft Crime (Prejudice and Public Disorder) (Jersey) Law (OQ.216/2024)

We come to question 16, the Deputy Doublé will ask
for the Minister for Justice and Home Affairs.
Deputy Louise Doublet - 1:54:31
Deputy.
Thank you, sir.
Will the Minister please provide an update
on the progress, if any, on updating the draft
Crime, Prejudice and Public Disorder Law,
including any consultation and discussions
with key stakeholders?
Minister.
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 1:54:48
Sir, as the Deputy will know
from the Crime, Prejudice and Public Order Jersey
was divided into two sections, one dealing with public order
components and the other with the issue of hate crime.
The public order section was brought to the Assembly
as the draft Crime Public Order Jersey law, which has recently
come into force.
The hate crime elements of the law
are being developed into a standalone law, which will be
brought to the Assembly in 2025.
Some key questions for stakeholders
will concern the scope of the intended protected
characteristics and the terms of the intended offenses.
An effective consultation on those points require that a draft
of the legislation be available for discussion.
Therefore, I will be consulting on the details
of the legislation in 2025.
Supplemental question, Deputy.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Louise Doublet - 1:55:38
Could the minister please give some further detail
on the exact timings of 2025?
Which quarter of that year would it be?
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 1:55:48
So at this stage, I cannot give exactly which quarter it will be.
There has been some delays in relation to unforeseen circumstances.
And the person dealing with this particular piece
of legislation has another large piece of legislation which is coming to fruition.
And so I can't be exact.
I would like it to be expedited as quickly as possible, but I would not want to say
that it would be in the first or second quarter
and then find myself in a position
where I couldn't deliver on that.
Yes, Deputy Gardner.
Deputy Inna Gardiner - 1:56:25
Can the Minister confirm if it will come
and be lodged in 2025?
Sir, that's an affirmative.
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 1:56:33
I'm confident that it can be done and lodged in 2025.
Deputy Gardner, Deputy Miles.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Helen Miles - 1:56:43
Can the minister tell the assembly whether misogyny is going to be included in this particular piece of legislation?
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 1:56:51
Sir, in relation to the misogyny part of it, I have recently spoken to the conveyor of the delegated powers and the Law Reform Committee of the Scottish Parliament about the treatment of misogyny in Scotland.
And I will be speaking to that person again in relation to this issue.
And so whether it will be a standalone or form part of the hate crime,
I'm having that discussion and I will continue that discussion, sir.
Yes, supplemental question, Deputy.
Deputy Helen Miles - 1:57:29
Is the Minister prepared to give her view whether she thinks misogyny should
or should not be included in the legislation?
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 1:57:35
I think, sir, that moving forward, I think it should be considered
as part of a legislation, whether that is separate or within the hate crime, sir.
Final supplementary, Deputy DuBois.
Deputy Louise Doublet - 1:57:53
Thank you, sir. What other actions can the Minister take or would the Minister consider
taking short of or in the meantime? For example, would she consider asking the police to record
crimes motivated by hatred of women in the same way that they record data on crimes motivated
by hatred of other protected characteristics?
And also, would you consider actions along the lines of the Labour government
in addressing in cell culture that might be present,
especially around social media use on the island?
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 1:58:26
Simple answer to that question, sir, is yes, I'm happy to speak to the states
of Jersey police to see what we can do
in the interim time before this legislation is implemented.
We will come down to question 17 that the deputy calls.
We'll ask of the Minister
for Sustainable Economic Development, Deputy.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Tom Coles - 1:58:44
Will the Minister state the cost, including the cost
of any standby vessel that will be incurred by government
in extending the provision of the ferry service from Condor
for seven months?
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 1:58:58
Sir, as I mentioned earlier, Condor have declined
that offer of seven months.
But had they agreed in itself, there is no funding involved
in supporting the delivery of the operating agreement.
And what we were suggesting was just an extension
of the existing operating agreement.
So there would not have been any direct cost implications
in that respect.
With regard to the existing contingency arrangements,
we would have had to make a call the existing contingency
arrangements for freight are in place until the end
of December this year and certainly we would have,
we have to and we would have had
to had the seven -month agreement been taken up,

Oral Question 17 - Cost of any standby vessel (OQ.208/2024)

decide then as to whether or not to continue to maintain
that freight contingency.
No decision had remained around that at this point.
Well, supplemental question.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Tom Coles - 1:59:55
Will the minister, is the minister able to confirm
that as part of the procurement of any future ferry service
that this standby vessel will no longer be funded by government.
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 2:00:07
So my entire stance in this matter,
certainly since I was informed of a decision by Guernsey,
has been to ensure that Jersey is in a position where it does
not have to fork out money.
That's poor language.
It does not have to spend money on either contingency
vessels or on future bailouts or be denied the opportunity to have fleet investment,
which gives us a fleet that we can be proud of for the island in the future.
So there is no question in my mind that any future contract that we enter into would be
– would not have – would deliver us a service whereby we do not need to maintain
contingency vessels.
If we did need to maintain contingency vessels, then I would suggest it was not a contract
that we should enter into.
DEPUTY CARTER.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Inna Gardiner - 2:01:01
Can the minister explain what led to the decision to set
up that arrangement?
What was the trigger?
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 2:01:08
Sir, and I believe this has been reported in the media.
Sir, last December, I received a request from,
I believe it was shareholders of the ferry company concerned.
quite simply for 40 million pounds, sir,
to ensure that they could continue operating the services.
And of that 40 million pounds,
10 million pounds was apparently urgent.
This followed a previous request for a guarantee
of 80 million pounds to underwrite the services.
These requests led me to believe that, number one,
I did not think that a 40 million pound investment
in a company that effectively was telling us was
on the edge would have been an effective way
to secure our ferry services.
And as a result, I took the decision that we should look
for a contingency arrangement to ensure that should the demise
of that ferry company occur that we had contingency to ensure
that food and medicines could be delivered to this island
on an ongoing and continual basis
because those lifeline freight services are, as I said before,
the very food that we eat.
And it was those requests that sent me, myself off.
And I have to say, I'm very grateful.
It wasn't just I who went out looking for contingency
arrangements.
I was accompanied by, I will say this,
he wasn't in government at the time, deputy loose,
because I knew he had a large understanding of maritime
matters, et cetera.
And I also felt that it was appropriate that she
loses in scrutiny at the time, but not on the panel that
scrutinized me.
That it was appropriate that the assembly
could be afforded the comfort of knowing that it was not
I just acting alone in that matter,
that there were other Is saying, no, this
is the right thing to do.
So that's a very brief explanation
of what happened last December, sir.
Indeed, supplemental question, please.
Yes, thank you, sir.
Deputy Inna Gardiner - 2:03:19
Just to make sure that I understand correct,
that this measures what Putin plays
in case to protect the island,
in case the Condor is going to burst,
an island will be protected.
Is my understanding correct?
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 2:03:38
That is correct, sir.
Debra Renoff.
Yes, sir.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 2:03:44
The minister said that the arrangement runs out
at the end of December, the current contract with Condor
runs till the end of March.
Will the payment, will the contract
to provide standby vessels be continued
till the end of March?
And if he is looking to do that, will he
be looking to share it with Guernsey,
as he has currently been doing?
So it is important.
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 2:04:09
The deputy does put his finger on an important point.
The current costs of those contingency arrangements
are shared on a 50 -50 basis with Guernsey.
Because we have not made a decision on the,
and we haven't yet discussed the continuation
of those contingency services,
I don't know Guernsey's position on that.
Because quite simply we haven't yet asked.
But I think it is really important, sir,
that the assembly understands that one of the things
of going through this ferry procurement process
was that it is quite possible
that Condor may not win the contract.
And so I did write to the company and the board
of the company as recently as 23rd of September
on precisely this point asking for certainty
around their ability to continue the contract
up to the end of March as their contract currently says,
the operating agreement currently says.
And I was asking are they able in the event
that they do not win the contract,
are they able to continue providing those services?
So the response at the time effectively
asked for money to guarantee the continuation of those services
and effectively asked for some of many millions of pounds
to continue those services till the end of March.
That is another matter in my mind,
because they are currently contracted
to continue those services.
Yet I was being told that they would require payment,
or may require payment in order to do so.
Sub -dental question.
Yes, sir.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 2:05:48
He's talked about the Condor contract.
He has a contract with a provider
of Lifeline Service on standby.
Is he able to say whether he has opened negotiations
with that company about continuing to provide that service
service, given the extreme vulnerability that he seems to be hinting at in terms of the
service from Condor?
And can he say who that contract is with and if he has explored other options in case that
contract might not be able to be extended with the current provider of that backup service?
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 2:06:29
I'm happy to say that the FDS are the provider of those contingency services through a contractual
basis.
They have chartered two vessels which remain on 48 hour
cool down standby to the islands
in the event that they are needed.
So far, so we have had to extend this, I believe, three times.
Please forgive me if I've not got that exactly right.
About three times we've had to extend it so far.
There has been no problem in maintaining the continuation
of those services.
And should we desire to continue the contingency arrangements,
So I have no reason to doubt that we would be able to do so,
as long as we give appropriate notice on our desire
to continue that.
The market for chartering vessels is constant.
And so if we choose not to continue with the contingency
arrangement, those vessels will, I am sure,
be chartered by other companies or jurisdictions
or other parties.
And so it is important, as long as we
give the notice the appropriate amount of time,
I have no reason to believe that there
be any difficulty in securing those charter vessels for a longer period.
CHAIRMAN HICKS.
And the supplementary, Deputy Coles.
DEPUTY COLES.
Thank you, sir.
And I'm sure the Minister will be glad
that this is probably the last question he's going to have to answer on ferries today.
Sir, the Minister made reference to investment in vessels
Deputy Tom Coles - 2:07:49
within his answers to one of these questions.
Can the Minister just confirm that this will be investment by the companies alone
or whether government will be involved in investment in new vessels?
That's a very interesting question, sir.
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 2:08:03
And it has been of my opinion that absolutely this
is about the companies investing in vessels themselves.
In fact, I was disappointed at one point in the past
where it was suggested that government should be investing
in those vessels as well.
And I've made it very clear that no, the routes themselves
enable profit to be made, and that profit
should be reinvested in vessels.
And it is, you know, islanders who pay
through their ticket prices, who pay through logistics firms
that book freight onto boats that pay
for that investment into the future.
And the idea that government should in some way pay
for that investment I think is unnecessary.
And in fact, the models I've seen
about future fleet investment show that it is unnecessary.

Oral Question 18 - Updating the Island’s Work Permit Policy (OQ.219/2024)

Deputy Beatriz Porée - 2:09:05
Will the Minister detail what progress, if any, is being made in updating the island's work permit policy
and explain why the publication of the new policy has been delayed?
Thank you.
Minister.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Mary Le Hegarat - 2:09:19
I had hoped to have the updates to the work permit policy published in August.
However, after the briefing, the Housing and Work Advisory Group,
it was requested that further consideration was given to certain elements.
This has taken longer than expected and I hope
that the updated policy will be published in the coming weeks.
Deputy Beatriz Porée - 2:09:40
Supplemental question, Deputy.
Not at this stage, thank you, sir.
Very well, that brings question.
Deputy Curtis, yes?
My apologies.
Sir, I was preempted on the light.
Very well.
Deputy Alex Curtis - 2:09:54
That brings questions to ministers
with notice to an end.
We move to questions without notice.
There's also an urgent oral question
to follow on after that.
But the first period of questions is
for the Minister for Health and Social Services.

Questions without notice - Minister for Health and Social Services

Deputy Gardner.
Deputy Inna Gardiner - 2:10:13
Deputy Gardner.
Yes. Thank you, sir.
I was first.
Would the minister advise if he is looking into the option
to move most of the services, more services
into the community as it was suggested previously?
Yes, minister.
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:10:35
Sir, apologies, I appear to be a little confused.
Moving services into the community, I'm not entirely sure.
I can clarify, yeah.
Deputy Inna Gardiner - 2:10:46
The UK government has made the shift in healthcare from hospital to communities as a central
part of the mission to improve healthcare and lower the cost.
We did have these discussions about moving more services from the hospital healthcare
to the community during the previous term in the care model.
Would the minister agree with this approach?
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:11:11
In a word, not entirely.
So I think there's a balance to be struck.
We are building an expensive new hospital.
It makes perfect sense to keep people in hospital for as long
as they need to be in hospital.
And at the same time, I know that over the course
of the longer term, we're going to be looking at helping
to improve care in the community as well.
And I think that we need
to take a balanced approach to those two things.
Deputy Inna Gardiner - 2:11:42
Thank you, Minister, for the question and for the answer.
As we all know that we have 30 beds blocked in the hospital and definitely care in the
hospital is more expensive than the proper care in the community.
What Minister Putin in place that the successful transition from the hospital when patient
is ready to the community will be in place and we avoid bad blocking in the
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:12:11
future. It's not always entirely clear about the difference in cost depending
on the level of care so we have to bear that in mind. We do have a I think it's
30 or 32 what you might I don't like to use the term bed blockers but that's
that's what we have what we have at the moment. We're in a very very difficult
situation that we're using all the beds that are currently available.
So we're just having to fine -tune things until we get more beds actually constructed.
And that's not really going to happen until such time as the new hospital is built.
Hopefully that will be completed at the end of 2028 or very early in 2029.
So really we're just in the difficult position at the moment of having to do the best we
can with the facilities that we've got.
Thank you, sir.
So complaints and learning from mistakes
Deputy Tom Coles - 2:13:02
is a key form of progress.
Can the minister confirm the best method
to raise issues and complaints with the health service?
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:13:12
I don't know if it's my hearing, sir,
but I just missed the end of that question as well.
So if the deputy could repeat the last part of the question.
Certainly, sir.
Can the minister confirm the best method
Deputy Tom Coles - 2:13:23
to raise complaints and issues within the health service?
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:13:28
Yes, sir.
And I do know that that complaints service works
because my inbox is full of them.
Yeah, there are two methods.
You can go onto the government website.
There's a route through there.
And you can go direct to the PALS, the Patient Liaison
Service at the hospital.
And I have to say, they do for this
and they do a very good job, sir.
So those are the two routes.
Can the minister?
Sorry, thank you.
Deputy Tom Coles - 2:13:57
Well, that's fine.
Will the minister confirm how regularly there's a review
panel that goes in, looks at the complaints,
and discusses lessons learned?
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:14:07
I've been caught off guard there.
I can't answer that question off the balls of my feet,
but I'm certainly happy to let the deputy know.
So hopefully later today.
OK, Alex Curtis.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Alex Curtis - 2:14:22
Has the minister considered creating
separate heads of expenditure for the separate sites
within the new healthcare facilities program.
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:14:28
No, sir.
Supplemental question, definitely.
Deputy Alex Curtis - 2:14:34
Thank you, sir.
Yes, the topic of separate heads of expenditures
and the transparent declaration of funding was covered
in the JEP today with the editor making note that following the need
to ensure value for money, I quote,
the picture will change once a builder has been chosen
and the project gets underway.
At that point, it is essential that islanders are able
to gauge the process and the cost
and make an informed and accurate assessment
of how things are going.
Following that, if not now,
when does the minister believe it is appropriate to create
and provide separate heads of expenditure
to deliver that balance?
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:15:08
Well, sir, we're going to be working
on three principle sites.
I don't think there'll be a time
when it's ever completely appropriate
to have separate heads of expenditure.
What I have committed to all along
is to divulge as much information,
financial information, as I possibly can,
as soon as I possibly can, without jeopardizing
our ability to get the best value for money
for the taxpayer.
I've made that position clear throughout,
and I maintain that position going forward, sir.
Yes, sir.
The previous Our Hospital project
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 2:15:49
to propose the health estate of under 70 ,000 square meters.
According to the government's feasibility study,
the proposed new health estate, Overdale, Kensington Place,
Enid, Kenno, and St. Xavier, will be
over 100 ,000 square meters, which is a 50 % increase.
What effect does the ministers think this increase
in the health estate will have on running costs?
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:16:09
Very difficult to tell, sir.
I wish I could be more forthcoming.
What we are going to be doing, I fully appreciate
that separating inpatient
and outpatient care will introduce some cost increases,
but we have to bear in mind
that it will probably introduce considerable efficiency savings.
I have to say that when the acute section moves
out of the Kensington Place cluster street block,
we'll be left with a considerable site
and we're currently reviewing the entire health estate to see
if it can be rationalized to the extent
that much of it can be moved onto that site.
That will free up a lot of old property at various parts
of the town and provide us with a new and efficient unit
in the center of town.
So I think collectively the quality of care
that can be delivered
from the three premises once they're finished will be
hopefully exemplary.
Some extra cost will be incurred.
Some savings will be made, sir.
Well, supplemental question, David.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 2:17:15
Yes, so the minister has previously identified
unavoidable pressures on future health spending,
including more expensive treatments, greater longevity,
and the cost of care, buying care in the UK.
Isn't he, why is he adding
to those unavoidable spending pressures
with an avoidable increase in operating costs caused
by a vastly increased health estate?
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:17:39
I simply don't agree with the statement.
Deputy Justice.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 2:17:48
Since my return to public duties and following my own
in ill health, I've been out and about
in St. Xavier asking people what their concerns are.
And I have, I am a teetotaler at the moment
and I don't smoke cannabis or use it.
I have, so I can't be stoned or drunk.
but I have been shocked by the feedback I'm getting from constituents about the complete inexplicable situation with regard to medicinal cannabis prescriptions
on the one side and the island promoting itself as a medicinal cannabis grower at large, which is going to be a huge economic implication.
Would the Minister be candid with the Assembly and say whether or not he thinks that the decisions of this Assembly made previously
are now coming out into a real nightmare situation that
is getting worse and worse and growing.
And I don't underestimate it.
This isn't a joke.
This is deadly serious.
But is it not a nightmare, sir?
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:18:47
I can imagine the headlines if I stand up and say that I
agree that it's a nightmare.
What I will say is we are, I would accept that we're
in a difficult position.
Decisions have been made without sufficient forethought.
And I think we're paying the price for that now.
What I have tried to do is set out
the work that's taking place to address all of those issues.
I did send an email out several days ago
detailing those actions.
And we're moving as quickly as we possibly can.
Unfortunately, there's nothing else
we can do other than seek to put right the position that
was created for us by previous assemblies.
But I do thank the deputy for raising the issue,
because it is a serious issue.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 2:19:37
Yes.
Thank you.
Sorry for not to question.
I apologize for the minister having to ask this.
But given, and I do not wish to be regarded
as an overly dramatic issue, but he
He is dealing with a massive situation at health.
And this is a self -imposed one that's
been imposed by this assembly.
Knowing what he now knows, do we need
to bring a rescindment motion on the two issues that
are growing cannabis for export and prescribing
medicinal cannabis and put that on hold whilst he can get on
with the important things that actually he
needs to get on with?
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:20:20
No, sir.
I think I have to put company on this.
You cannot, as an island, promote an industry,
encourage people to invest in it.
And you cannot put businesses on hold.
That simply doesn't happen.
What we have to do is rather hastily introduce
the legislation that's required to facilitate
those businesses.
And as for the use of cannabis,
I want to try and be a little bit more positive.
I was just going through the room on the side
and I was reminded by a deputy that we do have to bear
in mind that medical cannabis does provide a lot of relief
for a good number of people.
So I think we have to look on the positive side as well.
So whilst there are difficulties to overcome,
we have to be mindful of the fact that there are benefits
being enjoyed by a number of people.
So we have to put those things in balance.
Division.
Thank you, sir.
Clearly, there's a different paradigm
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 2:21:16
that could be pursued between community -based health care,
which the UK is now pursuing, versus a hospital -based
approach the minister is pursuing.
What evidence base has the minister used to form his thinking,
especially when he just answered earlier, he stated that a 50 % increase
in the hospital estate won't lead to increased running costs,
and when he shared that evidence with the assembly?
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:21:36
Once again, I think we have to be careful about the accuracy of questions.
Yes, there might be a 50 % increase in the health estate,
but there'll be a certain degree of rationalization as well.
But you also have to bear in mind
that modern facilities require more space
per individual patient.
We're going to be providing single rooms for people
rather than wards of six.
So there's an improvement in the quality of care.
Giving somebody more room in which to exist
and to which to spend their time doesn't necessarily of itself
produce a cost increase.
So I think we've got to be a little bit
careful when we're asking these questions, not
not to be too simplistic, sir.
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 2:22:20
So my question was about evidence and the paradigms
between community -based care and hospital -based care.
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:22:28
Yes, your answer was criticized in the question,
but not actually answering it, Mr. So.
It's a fair comment.
Evidence -based?
Well, I'm surrounded by professional people
who carry with them a great deal of experience.
The team that are managing the hospital,
The lady that's actually the project leader
was the deputy project leader on the last hospital project.
So I have available to me a great deal of experience
from people with a good deal of knowledge.
So that's the way I work.
I'm very impressed with the team of people
that I've been working with.
And I have no reason to suspect that the advice that I've
been given from them is in any way at fault, sir.
Some mental question, Deputy.
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 2:23:11
Thank you, sir. I was wondering if the Minister, beyond the specific people who have, as you said, professional advice,
but usually there is wider evidence based on research that's done through academic research or the wider discussions around the health community as such,
beyond Jersey in this discussion between these two paradigms.
And I was wondering if he has looked at those
and if he could share that evidence based with us,
why Jersey is choosing to go to hospital -based rather
than a community -based approach.
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:23:50
Well, as I suggested in one of my earlier answers,
we're doing a combination of both.
We've decided upon a hospital some time ago,
and we're going to continue with that.
I would also say that the experienced people with which
I'm working at the moment, have also got access
to an awful lot of people from elsewhere
and an awful lot of information from elsewhere.
And I know that they have been in consultation very widely
over the course of both the last project and of this one.
So we actually started this project
with a lot of previously collated information
from various sources.
Well, Deputy DuBois.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Louise Doublet - 2:24:28
The Health Advisory Board recently
identified an additional 5 million pounds
worth of funding pressures within the Health Department.
Can the minister explain how these pressures will be met?
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:24:39
We're hoping not to go to the full five.
We're making every effort that we can,
short of closing boards and theaters, which
I don't think anybody in the assembly
would appreciate us doing.
And I have to say, we're in constant contact
with the Treasury as things develop.
Deputy Louise Doublet - 2:25:00
Only 15 seconds left.
Will the minister be seeking extra funding from the Treasury Minister?
Deputy Tom Binet - 2:25:10
Could be the case, sir.
Well that brings the question time for this minister to an end. The next question period is for the Minister for
International Development. Does any member have any questions?
Catherine Curtis.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Catherine Curtis - 2:25:27
I understand that Jersey Overseas Aid has previously made grants to United Nations organizations
towards preventing famine in Gaza.

Questions without notice - Minister for International Development

Can the Minister explain whether Israel's move to ban UNRWA, the United Nations Relief
and Works Agency, will prevent any further aid getting into Gaza?
Deputy Carolyn Labey - 2:25:49
Thank you.
I thank the Deputy for her question.
Jersey overseas aid has in the past not directly contributed to ANRWA.
However, we have contributed to other NGOs in the area,
OCHA, International Health Partners, and the World Food Programme.
But undoubtedly, and has been recognized by the UN Secretary
Council President, that ANWA was the backbone for the aid
in Gaza at this time.
So it undoubtedly is going to have a very detrimental effect
to the aid getting in.
However, if I could just put this into context,
before the events of October the 7th last year,
there were 500 trucks of humanitarian aid
getting into Gaza.
Now there are 28.
And it's been recognized that we are now
witnessing a famine on the shores of the Mediterranean
in 2024.
That's not food insecurity, but a famine.
So yes, it will have a detrimental effect,
but aid will hopefully still be getting in.
It's an supplemental question, Deputy.
Deputy Catherine Curtis - 2:27:23
Thank you, sir.
Just will the Minister be able to update us on any improvements,
any progress that can be made around this?
I certainly will.
Deputy Carolyn Labey - 2:27:34
and as the good deputy has visited the offices of Jersey Overseas Aid,
I would welcome any member who wants to come in
and find out more about what we do and the details of any projects.
We're more than happy to share that with them.
Deputy Renoff.
Yes, sir.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 2:28:01
I was pleased to see a display of some anger,
I think, on the part of the minister in relation
to the situation in Gaza.
Can she say whether Jersey has any intention
to currently try and provide aid into Gaza
through the various routes that she has mentioned?
Deputy Carolyn Labey - 2:28:26
Indeed, and that's what I alluded to in Depti Kers' question.
We have been providing aid in Gaza.
In fact, since the events of the 7th of October last year, Jersey Overseas Aid this year alone
has provided about 700 ,000 pounds worth of aid
through various NGOs.
And all together with the contributions the year before,
we've, Jersey has provided
about a million pounds worth of aid to Gaza.
Thank you.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 2:29:06
Supplemental question, David.
Can she confirm that the intention is
to continue doing that despite the Israeli actions in shutting
down aid through UNRWA?
Deputy Carolyn Labey - 2:29:22
We certainly look for opportunities
when we can get aid in.
Our last contribution was actually to Lebanon.
We made a contribution a couple of weeks ago of 150 ,000
to UNICEF in Lebanon because as the deputy will be aware,
some of the children have fled over the border there.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 2:29:55
Could the minister outline how she ensures
that Jersey's ODA remains fully transparent
so external organizations and local stakeholders
can monitor fund allocation, assess project impact,
and provide feedback to improve aid effectiveness?
Deputy Carolyn Labey - 2:30:11
I'm not entirely sure how to answer this question.
Our ODA is in actual fact all our budget is open to scrutiny
and we believe we've got processes that are open
and transparent and we're more than happy
to share them with people.
We have a website which is accessible and our projects can be looked at there.
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 2:30:48
Most owners use monitoring tools that allow external organizations
and local stakeholders to access real -time information
to help impact evaluations by external organizations on funded projects.
Has the Minister considered utilizing international monitoring tools
such as the International Aid Transparency Initiative
to support transparency of Jersey's ODA.
Deputy Carolyn Labey - 2:31:11
Sir, I believe we do use real -time monitoring equipment
to look at our projects.
And if the deputy has a look on our website,
she will be able to see that that's what we do.
Deputy Poroy.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Beatriz Porée - 2:31:30
As winter is fast approaching, can the minister
Mr. Shear, an update on Jersey's continued commitment
to the humanitarian response in Ukraine.
Deputy Carolyn Labey - 2:31:44
Yes, I thank the deputy for her question.
And it's extremely timely as winter is approaching.
And I confirm in answering the question
that Jersey Overseas Aid is committed to standing
with Ukraine at this time.
Recently, we responded to an appeal by UNHCR
for their winterization program.
And we contributed to that fund that provides not only cash,
but also help with generators and heating equipment
and other such things.
and indeed the Alif's fund also contributed to that too.
Subliminal question, Deputy Parekh.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Beatriz Porée - 2:32:40
As part of transparency,
can the minister share with the assembly
what sort of support has JOA given so far to this war?
Thank you.
Deputy Carolyn Labey - 2:32:52
Yes, since the war started, Jersey has contributed in total 4 .1 million pounds.
Now that's not all from Jersey Overseas Aid, it is from your fund sir and I think for a
I think we ought to be incredibly proud of our donations to the Ukraine.
So my question has been asked.
Are there any other questions for this minister?
There are no other questions for the minister.

Questions without notice - Chief Minister

Then I close this period of questions and the next question is the Chief Minister who will take up all of the remaining time available.
Deputy Karen Wilson - 2:33:55
Deputy Wilson. Thank you sir. Can the Chief Minister confirm what he can do or explain
what he can do to restore confidence in his government in the face of
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:34:07
indecision around the ferry tender? We can resolve it as quickly as possible I
don't think the government at this stage has completely lost the confidence I
hope not of state members and members of the public but we are alive to the fact
that it needs to be sorted, but reiterate, it needs to be kept very,
very carefully considered because of the ramifications
and consequences of getting it wrong.
So our intention is to resolve it,
make an appointment as quickly as possible.
Subliminal question, Ted?
Deputy Karen Wilson - 2:34:33
Thank you, sir.
Could the Chief Minister explain what contingency he will have
in the event that no decision will be made
by the end of December?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:34:48
There will be a decision made, so the contingency will depend
on that decision, for example, if the decision is to remain
with the existing operator depending
on financial guarantees and so forth provided.
That would lead to one set of contingency.
If it was to change to a new provider,
that could require a different set of contingencies,
so depending on when the existing operator decided
to cease a sailing.
So it depends on the outcome, sir.
But we will, without fail, make a decision in the timeline
to outline the Minister for Sustainable Economic Development.
Deputy Miles.
Thank you, sir.
Has the Chief Minister identified
where the funding is going to come
Deputy Helen Miles - 2:35:35
from to reinstate the Move All Toddler Play Service?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:35:41
Yes, and I discussed the matter with the relevant ministers.
the money is going to be allocated from the pilot funds,
the Chief Minister's pilot fund.
So fundamental question, Deputy Miles.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Helen Miles - 2:35:53
Was the Chief Minister disappointed that he needed
to change government policy in this respect via social media,
and how will he ensure in future
that he can shape policy before it's announced?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:36:09
I don't think there was any government policy change
in this at all.
This was a decision taken externally
by an arm's length organization, Jersey Sport,
to do an excellent job working on the back of the report,
to focus on providing more input to sports.
They decided that this particular activity
didn't fit in that portfolio, so decided to cut it.
having seen that and seen firsthand the consternation
it was causing, I decided to post a tweet,
subsequently discussed it with the relevant ministers,
and found a solution.
So it's not a change in government policy.
I think it's reacting to the decision
of an arm's length organization that keeps
a valuable service going.
Everyone.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 2:37:10
Yes, sir. At the end of the questions with notice,
we heard a devastating critique of Condor's financial position
from the Minister for Sustainable Economic Development,
which revealed that they asked for 40 million pounds
to keep going a year ago, and in September asked
for more money just to continue with the contract
until the end of March.
What's stopping the government just giving the contract
to the other operator, DFDS?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:37:35
So I'm not sure it's advisable or wise to comment on
or provide an answer to that question in this forum,
given the fact that we are in the middle of discussions
with both operators.
Thank you.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 2:37:53
Some fundamental question.
David Drenoff.
So can I change tack then and ask,
What will the government do if Condor asks for more money
just to complete the contract by the end of March?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:38:08
I think that's a hypothetical question, sir,
because it depends on the outcomes of discussions
and appointments.
So we'd have to address that if the matter arose and based
on the circumstances at the time.
But what I would say is this government will not do anything
that compromises or endangers our lifeline freight service.
Either if that resolves itself in the appointment
of a new operator or means we have to utilize a contingency,
we will ensure those safeguards are in place.
DEPUTY SECRETARY HIGGINBOTTOM.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Louise Doublet - 2:38:53
Is the Chief Minister aware of countries such as Australia
who are planning to legislate for social media
use in children.
Is he aware of the harms of social media use in children?
And is he planning to address this for our children
in Jersey?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:39:08
I think we are all becoming more aware of the ramifications
and the harm, in some cases, of the use of social media
across society, not just in children,
but especially in children.
And that's something we haven't, as far as I'm aware,
discussed as yet.
But I would defer to the Minister
for Education and Lifelong Learning,
or the Minister for Children and Young People,
because they might be thinking about that.
And I would think in the not too distant future,
we need to be addressing those sort of matters.
So I've got a question there.
Deputy Louise Doublet - 2:39:46
Thank you, sir.
I believe there was a piece of work
led by the former deputy Jess Pershard in a previous government
with the chief minister agree to look into that work and follow it up if necessary.
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:39:59
Yes, I'm happy to discuss with the relevant ministers.
Thank you.
Debra Kovacs.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Inna Gardiner - 2:40:10
In recent news, the Bishop of Huddersfield stated that the Archbishop
of Canterbury position is untenable due to his handling of abuse allegations.
Deputy Raluca Kovacs - 2:40:17
In light of this ongoing controversy, what has the Chief Minister discussed with the
Dean of Jersey regarding the issue and what is Jersey's official position on the matter,
particularly given the island's historical and institutional links to the Church of England
and its handling of similar abuse cases?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:40:35
Well, first of all, I have to say I've been preoccupied with other matters and haven't
had a chance to familiarize myself with that story through the national media, and subsequently
I haven't had any discussions with the dean on it, sir.
Sub -dimensional, please.
Deputy Raluca Kovacs - 2:40:50
How does the chief minister believe the abuse controversy
will impact trust in local church?
And what steps will the government
take to prevent abuse in Jersey's institutions
in general, particularly in addressing concerns
around safeguarding, transparency,
and institutional accountability?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:41:07
Well, sir, I believe the church and generally
Your religious organizations are alive to this issue,
and many have taken great steps to combat it.
Of course, it's not been fully resolved, as we've heard, sir.
And I think it's something we need
to be mindful of in this assembly and the government.
But at this moment in time, I'm not
aware of this being part of our workstream.
However, I am prepared to discuss it
with the relevant religious leaders, if necessary,
so if only just to be updated on their procedures
and their policies and strategy for combating it.
Dr. Joseph.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 2:41:57
So question time is necessary.
It's not personal.
However, searching questions are required,
as uncomfortable it is to the Chief Minister.
And I put it to him, sir, how can he say with one breath
that Condor Ferries is okay to sign a contract
because he said Condor Ferries could be signed.
And in the next breath, here or with his ear,
here the Economic Development Minister saying
Condor Ferries is effectively broke
and you can't sign a contract.
How can he justify those two statements
and give confidence to islanders that he, as chief minister,
is actually holding the right sort of management level,
giving the right signals and support to his ministers?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:42:43
I think we were referring to Brittany ferries.
I don't believe Condor ferries is certainly not broke.
Brittany ferries is certainly not broke.
And I don't think the minister made that assertion.
He did alert members to the fact that Condor Ferries have
significant amount of borrowings.
And I think we need to be careful here,
because as I said in the previous answer,
we are having discussions with two reputable shipping
companies, Brittany Ferries, who are the majority shareholder
in Condor, and D .F. Diessa.
So I refute the fact we've made assertions that a condor are
broke or going broke.
We've just the debt that the minister has alerted members
to the concerns over the level of borrowing
that have primarily in relation to being able to invest
in ships in the future.
So we have to be very, very clear.
No assertions that anybody's going broke.
So it's right to consider the financial implications
into the future.
Supplemental question there.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 2:43:55
Sir, I'm afraid to say the chief minister is not
going to get away with answering a question like that,
because will he confirm that the counterparty to sign the tender
is Condor Ferries Limited and not actually Brittany Ferries?
It's actually spelled publicly out in the JCRA
and document of the acquisition.
And it's not Brittany Ferries.
Brittany Ferries is simply the potential acquirer of 51%.
And would he confirm for the avoidance of doubt,
because he's slipping around with the answer,
could he confirm that it's actually Condor Ferries, which
the minister is talking about, and it's
on daupharies that have got the financial problems.
And he says earlier that it's fine.
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:44:30
I think the deputy is slipping around with the question, sir,
because I'm not sure.
Is he talking about the existing agreement,
the existing service level agreement?
Or is he talking about a new agreement?
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 2:44:40
I think the question was, I think the deputy is juxtaposing
the thought that the relevant party, I won't name
at this point has had financial difficulties
to the extent it's required to ask for subsidy
as against the assertion that that same party has,
could sign a contract to continue or to deal
with the ferry service.
And I think the question is are these the same parties?
I mean it's really, I mean it's.
Well, I'll attempt to.
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:45:21
I can put it simply.
is there going to be a deal, are we talking about a deal with Condor
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 2:45:24
or not?
Because Brittany Ferries is not the player. It's Brittany, could you confirm it's Condor
Ferries that we're talking about and he said earlier he's got confidence. Now I
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:45:34
appreciate that you're exercised about this deputy and I appreciate that it's a
matter of obviously concern to members in the Assembly but we have to maintain
decorum with it and address questions through, Chair and I've already indicated
to what I think the question was about.
The question time is far from over,
so I'm afraid the Chief Minister will have a few more questions
to answer questions.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:45:58
I didn't think injury time was allowed in question time,
but very well.
There isn't injury time, but there is five minutes left.
Thank you.
At least.
The current service level agreement, as I understand,
is signed between the Harbormaster and Condor Ferries.
And that was signed, sir.
They were owned by Macquarie.
The shareholding has now changed,
and the Brittany Ferries are a shareholder, sir.
I would suggest that any new agreement, sir,
would not necessarily be signed with Condor.
But perhaps I could suggest the government
would be more comfortable with that new agreement
being with Brittany Ferries.
So there is no, this is part of the discussions that
are ongoing on who would be the signatory to a contract.
There is nothing decided in that area yet.
These are all part of the complex discussions that have been had
and continue to be had.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Inna Gardiner - 2:47:00
I will change the ferry this time.
Followed to written question 375, ask the Chief Minister
to provide a detailed breakdown, a ministerial portfolio of each
of the project and workstreams which have been delayed or stopped.
In his answer, Chief Minister advised that I have asked officers
to review these responses which were done to the scrutiny to ensure
that this information has been provided and published for all ministers.
Would the Chief Minister advise if he will publish one joint document
for the clarity for the public and for all States members per each ministerial
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:47:52
portfolio which project will consult or delayed? Yes sir I think in the answer
we I alluded to the fact that I believe ministers in in the course of their
engagement with scrutiny had provided this information and I've asked officers
to ensure they have and we will ask them to consolidate that information if required,
sir, no problem.
Deputy Inna Gardiner - 2:48:12
Thank you, Mr Chair, thank you, Mr Minister, and it was really helpful oral answer for
the previous question by his environment, Minister.
Some ministers provided, some ministers not.
When this will be published, will it be published this next week ahead of the budget debate
that we can really consider what we are voting for?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:48:32
I'm sure we can consolidate the majority
of what's already been published and I'll ask officials
to make sure it's as comprehensive as possible.
Thank you very much.
Any other questions for the Chief Minister?
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 2:48:50
Yes, can I ask whose idea was it
to offer the seven -month extension to Condor and was it
in response to the hospitality association back?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:49:01
I'm not sure it was directly in response to the hospitality
letter, but probably partially in response
to the hospitality letter, because they made very clear
their concerns about the delay in LAI bookings
for next summer.
So notwithstanding that in previous years,
as the timetable hasn't been published till later on.
And as I said before, it was a genuine attempt
to provide some certainty to help Brittany Ferries to enable
them to get their timetables up and take bookings for next
summer, and then to allow us a bit more time
to complete the process.
I think in a meeting, sir, the idea
was originally suggested by Deputy Morell.
I agreed with it.
I thought it would be a sensible solution.
Thank you.
So a few other questions we have joined.
Yes, sir.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 2:50:02
One commentator at the weekend described the invitation
to Condor to continue as like telling your partner you want
a divorce, but asking to keep on sleeping together
for another seven months once you sort out
your new relationship.
Why did the government think this would ever
be attractive to Condor?
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:50:18
I'm trying to compare the analogy, sir.
As I've said before, it was a genuine attempt
to provide some certainty for the traveling public
and for Condor to allow them to extend their operational
agreement until the end of October next year.
That was the intention, that nothing more and nothing less
than to try and be helpful to the travelling public,
to Condol, sir, and to allow more time for us
to deliver our decision.
There's no more to it than that.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 2:51:12
Does the minister feel that the procurement processes
of the government are considered robust enough to handle such issues
like what we've just heard where Condor was in financial difficulties
or was asking for subsidies on its current contract, but it was still allowed
to continue to bid quite far down the line
within the procurement processes?
And is there checks and balances, enough checks
and balances put in place in a procurement process
to ensure these type of issues are raised early enough
in the process?
In short, sir, yes, I do.
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:51:58
I'm not prepared to go into the detail of this course
in this forum for reasons outlined before,
whilst we're in the middle of discussions.
I'm sure the Minister for Sustainable Economic Development
will provide a private briefing to members
when we can go into that in more detail if necessary, sir.
But I do believe that the procurement procedures in this
were robust enough.
Unfortunately, Jersey and Guernsey
couldn't agree on an outcome.
And I'm not sure there's any contract or agreement that
can ever get Jersey and Guernsey to agree on both things, sir.
But we did our best.
And I don't think that's the fault of the process.
I think that's just because the islands had different views
and different decisions for their own reasons
at the end of the day.
So the next question.
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 2:52:49
So I think once this whole process is put to the seabed,
would we be able to, would the minister
agree that a full investigation should be undertaken?
and if there is identification for more robust procurement processes to be put in place for those to be enacted?
And a review taking place.
Deputy Lyndon Farnham - 2:53:14
Well, sir, as we all know, we never stop learning from what we do.
And I think I expect the process to be well scrutinized.
And whether we want to take it further than that ultimately is a matter for the Assembly, sir.
but we certainly need to learn from it.
When I became economic development minister in 2014,
I inherited something called the liberation, sir,
which was one Condor's new vessel with a new operating
agreement, which we learned since then trying
to work with has been difficult because it doesn't contain
the controls that we need.
So we've learned from that.
And any new contracts, I will have taken that into account.
So I can assure members that whoever we end up with,
the contract will be much more sharper and much more appropriate to protect the islands.
I might even suggest we give them a 50 early so we don't have to deal with it again for a long time.
That brings the period of questions to the Chief Minister to a close.
Sorry sir, we're just all looking at the clock which seems to suggest there's a bit more time.
I don't mind.
The clock that's operating is going
on the system that's up here.
I have functioned entirely throughout the morning
on the clock on my iPhone,
and I can say the time has elapsed, definitely.
I would be extending it artificially.
We're right to do otherwise, I'm afraid,
definitely, which is not within my gift.
There is now an urgent oral question

Urgent Oral Question - Rural and marine support scheme (UOQ.4/2024)

that I have given permission of Deputy Reniff of the Minister
for Sustainable and Economic Development.
I will allow seven minutes for this
because that was the normal allowance that I made for all
of the other oral questions which were dealt
with during the question period.
Very well, Deputy.
I'll read quickly.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 2:55:19
Will the Minister explain how he justifies more
than five million pounds of direct grants to visit Jersey,
of Jersey, the rural and marine sports schemes and others,
when the main purpose of the scheme
has always been advertised as to improve productivity?
Thank you, sir.
And I think a very interesting question, one
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 2:55:36
that I think it is quite simple to justify.
It is correct, sir, that a significant proportion
of the productivity support scheme,
sorry, I say the living wage support scheme,
as well as should I say, sir, is focused on the visitor economy
and the rural and marine economies.
The first reason for that is both the visitor economy
and the rural and marine economies have been identified
as being significantly impacted by the increase
in the minimum wage, which has risen.
I believe if everything goes ahead as planned,
it will have risen 72 % in five years.
That obviously causes stress and concern
for those businesses.
As I've said, the visitor economy and the rural marine economy have been identified
through economic analysis as being two of the sectors which are most significantly impacted.
With regard to the actual impact on productivity, the inclusion of Visit Jersey and Portso Jersey
is entirely focused around the concept of them extending or growing our visitor economy
by bringing more visitors to the island, particularly in the shoulder in the winter months.
By doing so, they will be increasing the productivity of those businesses that they frequent.
So at the moment, a hotel, for instance, is full in August but not full in October.
By providing more visitors to them in October, their return on investment, the productivity of their assets, increases.
They are employing staff who will be put to work in terms of gaining more value by having
more tourists spending with them during those months, whereas at the moment they aren't.
In terms of the rural and marine economy, sir, that is much more focused on competitiveness.
At the moment, the rural and marine economies have to compete against European, British,
and other economies that highly subsidize their agriculture sectors.
given that how agriculture and marine sectors are primarily export sectors,
in order for them to remain competitive given the wage rises that are being put upon them,
we believe that it is absolutely right to use the existing support schemes
to reduce the impact of those wage rises and by doing
so help those industries remain competitive against the international markets,
highly subsidized international markets in which they operate.
Deputy Jonathan Renouf - 2:58:15
Yes, sir.
I'm focusing on the rural support scheme.
And the minister told me off in September for referring to subsidies.
The current rural support scheme is an extra one million pound going into this, 1 .1 million.
Their current rural support scheme has three tiers, three different types of grants,
none of which are related to productivity.
How can he ensure that the money going to the rural sports scene will actually go to increasing productivity?
Or if it's not doing that, make sure that it isn't just a general subsidy to employers?
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 2:58:49
So as I've discussed, sir, the agriculture and the marine element of this is focused on competitiveness,
so that they can remain competitive in their international markets.
So we have analyzed the impact of the rise in minimum wage on those sectors.
And in the case of this sector, that 1 .1 million pounds is entirely, has been calculated as
the amount that the industry will have to pay extra in terms of wages.
Therefore, by putting in the 1 .1 million pounds, we are effectively balancing off the increased
cost.
That helps them remain competitive in their export markets.
That in itself, sir, gives them a chance at increasing productivity because if they are
to sell more, their high -quality products are able to be sold in overseas markets at
a competitive rate, that then provides them
with the opportunity to increase their productivity as well.
But the primary focus for agriculture and marine
is on competitiveness.
Thank you, sir.
Deb Joseph.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 2:59:50
Sir, would the minister agree that there is always
going to be consequences of putting a decision off
or making the wrong decision?
And as we have heard, the implications
of the cannabis industry is causing major issues.
There's some benefit.
The ferry services, Sir John Vickers wasn't listened to.
We've now got problems, and he's having to deal with it.
He lodged yesterday a package of measures of 20 million
on the well -intentioned idea of this assembly
to move to a living wage.
There's been no scrutiny.
There's lots of questions about it.
It's been taken from the Social Security Fund.
That's probably going to be a problem for the government.
Does he really think that he should
be pressing ahead with this package
in this absence of information and only
having yesterday, members having received the detail of what
is a huge amount of money being spent.
Isn't it about time to say, enough's enough.
We need to pause this.
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 3:00:44
Sir, I wouldn't mind a bit of clarification on the very end.
We need to pause this.
We need to pause the living wage support scheme,
or we need to pause the rise in the minimum wage.
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 3:00:57
So I think both of them, the two are inextricably linked.
We're doing something.
We're blindly going ahead with basically dealing
with things that have had unintended consequences
in the fact that there's millions.
Clarifications one thing,
a second preamble is a different thing.
Yes, please.
Thank you, sir, but that seven minutes
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 3:01:15
continues to take down.
But from the perspective of a state's decision
was taken in 2021 in response to Deputy Sutton's proposition
and that proposition, which was adopted
by the state's assembly, said that we would bring
the minimum wage up to 2 thirds of medium wage by 2024.
That's what is being delivered on.
It's a state's assembly decision.
As a result of that state's assembly decision
and the desire of the government to deliver on that decision
we are saying that we understand the stress
that that places on employers and employers of all sorts
from businesses to charities
and all other institutions in between.
And what we are saying is we want to help you
cope with these pressures
by helping you become more productive.
Jersey, unfortunately, has a very low rate of business investment.
It is lower than the UK's rate of business investment, and in itself the UK's rate is
the lowest of the G7 nations.
So I am very concerned about business investment in this island.
I'm very concerned about the rate of productivity in this island.
By designing a package of support measures which focuses primarily on productivity, but
also has competitiveness as part of it, we are helping businesses in this island place
those investments in themselves so they become more productive,
more resilient and robust to be competitive in the future
and to make sure that Jersey has a high performing economy
for the future.
So in that sense, sir, I do believe this is absolutely the
right thing to do.
The supplemental question?
Deputy Philip Ozouf - 3:02:48
Not at this stage.
It's not right to take up any more time,
but it's a clear problem here.
There's one minute to go.
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 3:02:54
Deputy Chairman.
Thank you.
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 3:02:58
Unlike previous schemes, the decision -making on how
and who gets funds seems to have been outsourced
to Jersey Business.
Does the minister believe they have the capacity to deliver?
Yes, sir.
Deputy Kirsten Morel - 3:03:07
In short, we have been working with Jersey Business on this.
We are making sure that they have the resources
and part of the productivity support scheme, sorry,
part of that support package has a very small amount
to help resource Jersey Business in this.
But it's absolutely right that we look
to an independent grant provider who does that work rather
than having that within government.
I think that's absolutely the right thing to do.
And we've also designed the processes to be swift
on the one hand where it's small amounts of grants
and to be more onerous on the other hand
where they're larger grants so that we are able to help deliver
for businesses in the way that they need to.
So I do think that's absolutely the right thing to do.
That brings the time that I've allocated
for this urgent oral question to an end.
There is one further stage before we move
on to public business, which is a statement to be made
by the Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning.
We are five minutes off the normal adjournment time
that thereabouts, five or 10 minutes off it.
It's a matter for members whether they wish to continue.
As they know, if there is a statement,
then there will be a 15 -minute question period.
I'd like to propose we do it now, sir.
I'd like to propose an adjournment.
Is that, I mean, there's no point in wasting time deciding whether to do it now.
The Chief Minister has proposed that.
I would just propose to put that.
Is it seconded?
Yes, sir. Members agreeing to continue
until we finish the statement kindly show.
Members against?
I think for me to make a judgment call on that other
than to count you all manually, we'll have to do the appeal.
White members to return to their seat.
The proposition is to continue with the statement
from the minister until to conclude,
ask the great committee to open the voting.
A vote for means we continue until we finish that matter.
Members have had the opportunity of casting their vote.
I ask the committee to close the voting.
And we continue 23 votes for 14 votes
to confirm those tensions.
Yes, Minister.
Thank you, sir.
I was expecting to go to lunch then.
Okay.
Deputy Rob Ward - 3:05:45
Thank you, sir.
So at the end of October,
I published my early years plan.
This is from part of my commitment
to ensure transparency as the work on early years
progresses, both with the assembly and the public.
In particular, the Children Education Home Affairs Panel
wished to know how the work to develop the extended nursery
revision would be progressed.
So reports can sometimes be lodged
without any real discussion in this assembly.
Today, I would like to make this statement
and take questions on the plan to encourage transparency
and to be clear on the plan itself.
Within the common strategic policy 24 to 26,
that was approved in May 2024,
I and the rest of the Council of Ministers
made the top priority of this plan
to extend nursery and childcare provision.
It is important to remember why this priority
was proposed and approved.
Importantly, evidence is clear that increasing the capacity
of a quality provision of early childhood education and care
can have a transformative and positive effect
on young children.
As Minister for Education and Lifelong Learning,
this is something I care deeply about.
Secondly to that, there are a number of further benefits
which will be recognized by the delivery of this government
priority and felt by a large proportion of Islanders,
either directly or indirectly.
Namely, sir, improved access and choice for families
as child care spaces increase, a strengthened position
for a jersey to attract and retain working families,
utilization of capacity in school workforce
and or other premises, increasing training and support
for the existing nursery provision,
and a drive to increase the value of those
who work in this vital sector.
So I've listened and heard from parents with young children,
online petitions, emails, and direct messages
how difficult it can be to secure childcare
for their young children.
This doesn't just impact from those people directly, it impacts on our wider economy
and retention of a working age population.
We committed to actions, not words, and this is what we have done.
In order to truly understand how to best respond to the demand, we have begun a series of pilots,
each with its own specific scope, objectives, and measurements.
Running pilots means that we can test these operating models to better inform our policy
decisions ahead of moving to a universal offer and increased
capacity at the same time.
Pilots also assist in wider understanding
of the economic impact of any change
and how they best support provision across the sector.
From September of this year, we have three schools operating
pilot schemes.
Two provisions for two to three you
all have opened, prioritizing those with greatest need.
These children were unable to access current nursery
provision.
This is created within existing government school buildings.
This does not mean there is a formal classroom teaching.
The sessions are tailored by professionals
for the age group and ability.
We are simply utilizing existing space
in government buildings, thus reducing the overheads.
And my sincere thanks go to those schools
and Jersey Childcare Trust for developing the provision
at such pace.
This is a brand new model where a third -party provider is
operating from existing government locations,
and one we are open to rolling out further.
Training extended wraparound care
for three to four -year -olds in three government preschools.
We know that limited hours in government preschool settings
without wraparound care can make it
difficult for working parents.
We hope that these pilots will show us whether extending
the provision and providing greater parent and clearer
choice creates more overall capacity within the system
where there is identified need.
All the pilots will be reviewed
at the end of the academic year in 2025.
Over the course of 2025, we hope to build on these pilots
and SIPEs officers are already exploring options.
All these actions have a context and build upon progress
that had already been made,
and I acknowledge all the previous work in this area.
The evidence paper on optimizing early childhood education
and Child Care, ECEC, commissioned in 2023
and published by ISOS Partnership in the first

Arrangement of Public Business

of August, 2023, has been used to shape future policy.
The roundtable events from November 2023
to January 24 identified key guiding principles
which continue to inform policy development.
This constitutes a significant level of engagement
across the sector before any pilots commenced.
Early years policy has been a constant area of focus
over the last decade for each minister in post.
And I would like to thank the previous minister and assistant minister

Urgent Oral Question - Rural and marine support scheme (UOQ.4/2024)

for focusing this area.
We are here thanks to a significant amount of work that has gone
into research, consultations with parents and families,
and professional providers across the industry.
The report itself details a number of key milestones.
I will not list them in this statement so you can be read.
The feedback and engagement with our nurseries, child minders, nannies,
and regulators, schools and charities have helped,
have all helped to shape our analysis
and improve the accessibility families have
to early years care and education for their children.
Amongst other priorities, their input and consultation
have helped us understand that recruitment and retention
within the sector is a challenge.
And so from September, we have become a recruitment campaign
assisted by the Best Start Partnership
to promote the range of careers available within the early
years sector.
Further work is already underway to co -develop a plan
to include investment through continuing
professional development.
So the right care at the right moment
requires a responsiveness and sensitivity
that should be recognized as serious professional work.
We must recognize the value of those who work in this sector
to our society.
I am grateful to all of those who represent
the industry that have met with me, written to me,
and offered their valuable insight and experience.
We want the changes we are developing
to benefit those who utilize early years child
care and education, but also the providers of this care.
First and foremost, however, we want the changes
to benefit the island's children.
I'm sure members will agree that the work delivered
in the priority has been done at a significant pace.
I am both impressed and grateful that we are already
offering placements for children in our pilot schemes,
that prior to this, we're not accessing early years care.
The work, however, doesn't stop here.
And as I previously mentioned, officers
are already working on further pilots to be rolled out.
This is crucial as it evidences a track record
of delivering positive change, making further investment
in early years, a decision we can make with confidence.
The investments required will be benefits
that impact current generations,
but also beyond for years to come.
So thank you for the opportunity to make this statement.
I hope members have the opportunity
to read the published report,
and I would welcome any questions they have.
Thank you, sir.
There is now a period of 15 minutes of questions.
Debly Duble.
Thank you, sir.
I'm sure this is probably an error,
Deputy Louise Doublet - 3:13:06
but one of the policy initiatives
from the previous government was a grant,
a startup grant for child minders,
which was implemented last year, I believe.
Is the minister maintaining this,
and how else is he supporting child minders
to offer their services to families?
Thank you, Senator.
Deputy Rob Ward - 3:13:24
Thank you, Deputy Secretary Christian.
I was sat here thinking, there will be something where I have
not gotten my extensive notes.
I believe that is the case, but I will not say anything
to the deputies in this case.
Let me double check and get back to you.
I will reassure the deputy.
I am meeting with child minders.
We were meant to meet recently, but there was illness.
And you have to meet after work because they're working all day.
I am very keen.
I have met with the chair of the child minders group,
and I'm going to meet one to one with child minders
to reassure and ensure that on all sorts of areas
of the development that we have,
but yes, absolutely support child minders
and we want to increase the number of child minders
if we can, thank you.
So I have a question.
Deputy Louise Doublet - 3:14:02
Yes, thank you sir, and I thank the Minister
for his answers.
The Child Minder's Association is part
of the Best Start Partnership.
Is the Minister meeting with the Best Start Partnership
and what were the partnership's views on this?
Were there any that express any dissent to this plan?
Thank you sir, yes.
Yes.
Deputy Rob Ward - 3:14:17
I met with Dr. Kathy Hamer online recently
to have a good discussion.
One of the problems is the best start partnership meetings
are always when the ministerial meetings are.
So I'm going to have to prioritize those.
The best start partnership represents
from across sector, every single part of the sector.
And I think in general, the response is very positive.
What we need to ensure is that every part of the sector
understands the change and is reassured that the changes we
we're going to make is for the best interest
of everyone involved.
It is counterintuitive to do anything
that will limit nursery places when we're trying
to increase nursery places.
So by running pilots, we can ensure that that doesn't happen.
And the Best Start partnership is a really key source
of information for us as we move forward.
Deputy Captain Curtis.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Catherine Curtis - 3:15:16
In the report there's a focus on training.
Can the Minister explain what support will be given for training
and also confirm whether the full -time childcare studies are included
in critical skills courses so that students can claim because of support?
And if not, why not?
Thank you, Senator. Good question.
Deputy Rob Ward - 3:15:36
We are currently working with the Social Security Minister
to update those critical skills courses so that it's a much easier place.
And yes, I would want those courses to be included in that.
So the first part of the question,
I'm so focused on the second part.
Could you just repeat the first part?
Deputy Catherine Curtis - 3:15:52
Yes, just generally about the support given for training.
Yes, thank you, sir.
Deputy Rob Ward - 3:15:57
The so far in the recruitment campaign,
46 candidates are engaged with the early years recruitment
team.
Four candidates have applied for vacancies
for the early years recruitment team.
There we go.
It was 16 early years settings, nurseries, preschools,
playgroups, and charities, and 18 candidates
attended the events.
And so the support is both the beginning of encouragement
to get people involved in the sector, the provision of courses
to support them in the sector, and the vision of training
and CPD within those who are already in the sector itself
so that we can increase the skills across the board, which
is what we need to do.
Deputy Catherine Curtis - 3:16:41
Yes. Is that supplemental or not?
Deputy Chair.
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 3:16:48
Thank you, sir.
The pilots going ahead are all offering something slightly different.
What measures, outcomes, and data is the Ministry using
to determine the individual pilots have been successful and cost effective?
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Rob Ward - 3:17:03
Yes. And that is one of the...
We have a sort of a catch -22 with data,
because when you run pilots and you run a range of pilots,
you are going to obviously get perhaps data
from different areas that is not comparable with each other.
So for example, those pilots that
are being run by those young people, those children
with additional needs, which we can't access nursery,
one of the indicators is simply for your numbers
that are being able to access nursery.
And there are key indicators, which
I'm not a specialist in early years provision of teaching other areas.
I might be able to talk you through that.
But certainly JCCT have particular indicators which show progression from those groups.
So that would be one of the examples of that.
The other key indicators of whether there is an uptake, for example, of the wraparound provision.
We are trying to identify where the need is and then address that need.
If the need is not there, then we work in other areas.
but we've got to be flexible and we've got to be able to utilise all of the facilities that we have
in order to provide that childcare as the best possible way we can.
Thank you.
Supplemental question, Deputy.
Deputy Hilary Jeune - 3:18:12
Yes, thank you.
I think that's what the Minister was talking about,
was about assessment of the children themselves,
where my question was really asking was that wider monitoring and impact of the pilot projects for,
I suppose, his vision of providing wrap -around care and nursery care for both three to four -year -olds
and then for those that are younger for two -year -olds as well.
I'm not quite sure about what the Minister's vision is in the future, so I suppose that's my second question.
and then related to what I was asking before is how will he be measuring those pilot projects
because they're all slightly different to help to, I suppose, support his vision.
Deputy Rob Ward - 3:19:05
Thank you, sir. And I think, Deputy, the vision is very clear. The vision is provide the nursery
provision that is necessary for the island so that we can introduce a NEF fund,
a fund for two to three -year -olds,
which supports parents with two to three -year -olds.
Initially, I'm looking at around 15 hours,
but we'll see how that goes.
And the second clear part of the vision
is to ensure that all of the resources we have,
the facilities we have, are utilized to their utmost
so that parents can access child care when they need it,
where they need it, so that they can utilize the facilities
that we have, and doing so at the right time
for the right reasons.
It's not about setting up a competition for nurseries
that are already there.
It's about providing the extra nurseries, places
that have been identified for the ISOS report and all
of the work that's going on.
So I think that's clear as to what I want to do
to make sure that's available.
In terms of the measurements, there will be numerous.
One will be, are those places being filled?
Are there still large waiting lists?
Are the provisions being used effectively around the island
in terms of the places being used that we provide?
And finally, are there places available so
that we can offer a universal two - to three -year -old offer
and parents can actually access it?
Because it's easy to say, here's your offer
if there are no nursery places available.
So those are the sort of general indicators
as to whether that works for me in terms of introducing it,
in terms of standards that already happens with the standards that are set by the department anyway in nursery care.
Thank you, sir.
Dr. Wilson.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Karen Wilson - 3:20:58
Could the Minister explain whether there's been any impact assessment on the effect in the private sector by introducing the pilot projects?
And could I also ask, if I may, that the targeting of these pilots is not going to be protected just in the sort of St. Helier area,
but we are looking broadly across the island
to be able to expand the provision.
Yes, thank you, sir.
Thank you, deputy.
Deputy Rob Ward - 3:21:22
Yes, one of the reasons for undertaking a pilot
is to see the impact across the sector.
As I said before, it is completely counter -intuitive
if our need for more nursery places
to then produce a system that closes down nurseries.
I don't believe that is what we want to do.
That is not our aim.
There is not about competition.
It's providing, using the facilities that we have,
often in schools that are not being used.
So we don't have to build new facilities, but we can use them.
Part of that will be to use facilities across the island,
because there are non -town schools,
if I can put it that way, which have plenty of places that
can be utilized.
The best way to do that is exactly
why we're running pilots, both in terms of those young people
who can't access and need extra care in the settings
that they're in, and also to utilize those spaces as best
possible without damaging in any way the resource and the capacity that we have already.
One of the good things about using the school facilities is there's a huge flexibility in
schools.
So if that need is not there, it's a lot easier to, if you like, move away from that facility
there than it is for another company that is set up in a particular way.
So it gives us huge flexibility and we will need that flexibility because of the variation in numbers that we will have.
And the unpredictability in some ways of the numbers longer into the future.
That's another question that someone might want to ask.
A supplemental question.
Could I ask the Minister, will the pilots take into consideration the diversity of need?
Deputy Karen Wilson - 3:23:05
and is it possible that there may well be a two -tier service emerging from the pilots?
Deputy Rob Ward - 3:23:15
Thank you, sir. Obviously, it would take all nurseries should take into account,
all of our provision for early years should take into account the diversity of needs,
because children are not one big conglomerate of sameness.
Indeed, it's exactly the opposite. So I would say that to begin with.
I don't see it as two -tier.
I would say more specialist help in particular areas,
but I wouldn't tier those two things so.
The nursery provision will be appropriate,
the right provision at the right time for the right needs
in the best possible place we can do it.
In fact, some of the dialogue around what we're doing,
I would like to change, and I would like to, from this point,
really move away from that notion of two tiers.
It's about getting the right need where it's needed.
Some children may need more input from specialist areas,
all sorts of specialist areas, but that's going to enable those children to develop
so they're in a better position when they do start school later on.
And that's the success of intervention in early years, which I hope we can undertake.
Deputy Governor.
Thank you, sir.
Deputy Inna Gardiner - 3:24:23
The minister referred to ISIS report during his statement.
What plans does the Minister have to progress on all recommendations in the report and if
he had consulted with the Jersey Early Years Association for progressing with all recommendations?
Deputy Rob Ward - 3:24:48
There are quite a few recommendations in the report.
I have met with the Jersey Early Association twice already.
I'm meeting again on the 5th of December.
And there's been consistent officer engagement as well
from that sector of the economy, of the provision.
The main summary recommendations,
And we have to prioritize in terms of nursery.
So there was one, for example, sir.
I've got so many notes here.
I should have cut them down a little bit, to be honest.
The guiding principles were really key.
About when you need holistic and join -up work across the service.
We need a stronger, clearer offer to families,
but not a one -size -fits -all.
And those are the sorts of, this is the difficulty,
but also the challenge, but also I
think the very successful thing that we can undertake.
We have had these discussions from all sectors
of the provision of early years.
We've come up with some key principles which
are on the ISOS report.
What I've decided to do is to focus
on the provision of early years, nursery provision.
Other areas, such as family hubs,
they can absolutely happen.
They're part of a different provision,
and they are separate from early years.
It's not either or.
It's both of these things.
But this part of the CSP voted for by this assembly
is about the provision of nursery provision
on the early age so we can move towards a universal offer
for two to three -year -olds.
And I think that is a very separate, but very key thing
that we have to do in the coming years.
Dr. Metelquist?
Absolutely.
Deputy Inna Gardiner - 3:26:32
It's important to understand that 75 % of the not 205
providers are in the private sector.
The private sector reach out to scrutiny and raise concern.
What work has been done to understand this concern
and whether they're real and can be mitigated
to continue provision to earliest, not to two,
which might be affected by the Minister's plan?
Yes, thank you, sir.
Deputy Rob Ward - 3:27:00
Thank you, Deputy.
So the concerns raised,
There are a number of concerns raised from a scrutiny letter,
which we can address.
Some of those areas, I have to say,
I simply don't agree that they are issues that were
going to be a problem.
Other areas, such as the effect of increasing nursery
places on current private nurseries, I am not,
and I'll say this again, producing a competition.
If there are long waiting lists, if there are waiting lists.
I'm sorry, Minister, that brings to an end the period available
to you for questions as a result of this statement.
Is the adjournment proposed?
Assembly stands adjourned until 2 .50.
Thank you.